To ask for advice re PILs?

[Stormwhale]

Just a disclaimer, I am pregnant, hormonal, tired and there is a long history of us making an effort with the PILs, but it not always being an easy relationship. I can go more into that if necessary, but it will be very long.

Dd (5) is fond of PILs, but is wary of fil as he can ignore her boundaries when it comes to tickling, or rough play to the point where she is upset. He just doesn't seem to naturally know how to relate to her without all the rough play. I will always stop him when I see this happening, same as I would with anyone else.

Over Christmas he asked dd (without talking to us) if he can come and collect her from school and walk her home one day a week. She agreed. This then escalated to him telling her that she could then come home with him sometimes and stay over (this has never happened before) to which she said no, that she didn't want to. We told her that was absolutely fine, and she didn't have to go anywhere she didn't want to.

Last week we got a phonecall to tell us that on Friday pil will be coming with to collect dd from school, and will then start on his own the next week. There was no question, it was an order. This put our backs up and dh said no, that hadn't been arranged and wasn't convenient.

At the same time I started to feel very anxious about the whole thing. I'm worried that dd has been struggling at school a bit since going back after Christmas and seems quite emotional at the minute. Dh and I ended up having a disagreement as he feels we have already agreed to it. We have since spoken more and are more on the same page. He understands that I'm struggling a bit with anxiety at the moment, my hormones are all over the place and this is a stressful situation.

So yesterday Dh starts getting repeated FaceTime calls from fil. He didn't answer as it wasn't convenient. We were out for two important birthday celebrations. He also received messages from mil asking what day fil can come with to the school so he can start collecting her the next week. He replied briefly, explaining where we were but didn't specify a day. He did pop over there yesterday evening though, but unfortunately was met with a barrage of abuse off of fil about him not answering the FaceTimes and how he wants to see his grand daughter, he hasn't seen her in two weeks. Dh replied that he will have to wait as we have been busy. I will just point out that they saw dd 3 or 4 times over the Christmas break including on Christmas day.

I don't know where to go from here. I want a good relationship with them, but it feels like our wants and needs are being trampled all over, and they are being far too pushy. I don't feel comfortable about the pick up situation, but it feels like there is no way out. I'm worried he will use it as an opportunity to convince dd she should be going for sleepovers when she doesn't want to.

The FaceTime issue is getting to me as well, as it feels so intrusive and if we ignore it fil clearly kicks off. It's not always convenient or appropriate depending on what we are doing.

I know it's easy to say just say no to what they want, but it will cause a rift. We have worked hard at the relationship with them while trying to keep our own boundaries, but this feels like it's pushing too far.

Any outside insight would be great.

PlainSpeakingStraightTalking

So you trust strangers, and tell lies about safeguarding? It wouldn't cause safeguarding issue at all. The lies that are glibly offered in this forum is shocking.

Ha ha I love the name PlainSpeakingStraightTalking, though I can think of a better one.

I never trusted strangers with my children, the mothers on the school run were friends with children of the same age. And schools don't allow just anyone to pick up children after school, for safeguarding reasons. Since the OP and her DH don't want to give permission, the PiL is causing a problem.

Nothing wrong with lies that smooth over an awkward social situation.

I think your conversations may need to be less "careful" and more direct. You may have to accept that you do upset your PIL or your own boundaries will get stamped on and you'll be at home stewing about FIL doing things you're not happy with just to prevent them tantrumming.

As he was abusive and controlling to your DH I'm surprised you are both willing to keep them happy and facilitate this to be honest. You know that this manipulation is just a way of controlling you and your family now?

I would say dd is not keen to go for sleepovers because Granddad is just too full on, I doubt there is anything sinister going on, but she just knows how he is.

Why not let him pick her up and bring her straight home, building up to going for a cake or to the park for an hour, then home...this could easily build up to sleepovers as and when dd is happy with it, and just doing something quite ordinary where Granddad is not being OTTsuper fun, silly, tickle to tears will probably break that pattern of behaviour.

You are the mum, what you say goes. Highly inappropriate to ask your child, he asks you then you discuss with her and her dad, and get back to him. She doesn't have the maturity or know what plans you have any day.
Not saying he has abused her, but it takes about 30 seconds and. Ould be done in front of you, under your nose in rough play, or when you leave the room for a moment. Look at nspcc website for pants campaign, how to keep safe.
More likely she is uncomfortable with the intensity, being asked without your say so, and picking up on feelings between adults. This is unhealthy. Her response when he asks her is, you have to ask mummy, and she should know he doesn't fetch her unless you have said so. Have a password for emergency if you can't pick her up, don't let him know it. Inform school to keep watch.
Just tell him no and say he risks his relationship with you, which is his route to see his grandchildren, he has no access to them without you agreeing. Go low contact.

I’m in the no camp, if your fil does collect her from school and take her back to his home and he starts rough playing her and tickling her you wont be there to stop him over stepping the boundaries.

I must say the constant request for him to pick her her up from school doesn’t sit well with me especially as he has no boundaries would certainly be a worry to me.

I would politely decline all offers and only have visitation when either yourself and your dh are present also.

He’s possibly an over enthusiastic grandparent, but I would air on the side of caution.

I think that you have to say no to the collecting as FIL doesn't respect her boundaries, hasn't asked you first & sounds as if he will be pressuring her into staying over.

Don't be trying to have a good relationship with them-it sounds as if they (FIL?) aren't interested unless it's all their way.

Sounds as if a break from the intensity would be good for your daughter!

"We have had 5 years of careful conversations where we point out that his behaviour is not right and show him how to behave around her. It is sort of better, but it has taken years of correcting him to get there. I'm exhausted by it".

Do not put yourself, let alone your H here, through another 5 years of the same from him. It is not sort of better at all and your boundaries are too low, the fact that you are still engaging with him on some level still is not great either. He has learnt precisely nothing from your careful conversations with him. The fact too that you have had to have careful conversations with him as well is very disturbing and a huge red flag here.

You are her Mum OP what you say goes, just tell him no you don't have to give any reason at all.
I would also be asking her in a very gentle way if hes ever done anything he shouldn't.Just because shes never been on her own with him doesn't mean he's never abused her!.
To me it sounds very off his behaviour. If she was my child shed be nowhere near him. Trust your instincts OP.

It would ring bells for me. Not necessarily that of sexual abuse but control and bullying. He is trying to ride roughshod over you and DH and dd.

Whilst it might be nice that he picks dd up pressurising is not. And I would be worried he would pressurise her into staying over when she doesn’t want to.

You actually have two perfectly good reasons to say no to both requests - she is emotional and unsettled at school at the moment anyway so you are keeping to her current routine. And given the new baby coming you don’t want her to feel pushed out.

Op - it sounds like a lot of issues here tangled into one.

Fil is controlling. Dh knows this. You say it has taken him a while to get out. But it sounds ongoing (repeated FaceTimes and abuse when unanswered) now fil is now doing this to your dd.

Fil doesn’t respect boundaries. Major issue. If he was to pick dd up by herself there would be no one there to rein him in. What would happen?

Fil demanding to pick up dd. This is weird and controlling. No it’s not a normal loving grandparent offering childcare which I see a lot at school. He has decided he is picking her up. Whether you or dd like it or not.

I also don’t think it’s coincidental he’s chosen Friday’s as it will make it easier for him to ‘keep’ her overnight for a sleepover. Again whether you like it or not.

There is no way I’d be allowing my dc near this man. What does your dh think?

Actually OP I probably wouldn't have allowed it and said no from the off as they went behind you back to your DD.

If you allow the pick ups I would definitely explain to them that they are not to speak to DD about sleepovers (or any more pick ups/days out etc). Explain that they are to go to you as her parents first, and if okay with you. Any further suggestions made directly to DD will be an instant no and pick ups will also stop.

I think this is more about control as they are phoning you and telling

Trust your gut op, bin him off. What does mil think?

Tbh I always think posters jump feet first too quickly regarding red flags etc - however, this is the first post I've read where my spidey senses tingled immediately!
Your dd is very clearly telling you she's not comfortable around him, and the fact she wants sleepovers at your parents means this is specifically just your PILs.
Listen to her, say no, be firm.

It's not the fact that your FIL is keen to look after your daughter, it's the way he's going about it that isn't right. He seems used to getting his own and basically wearing someone down until they agree.

A grandparent wanting to spend time with their grandchild is lovely but it's his persistence I find alarming. Something about it seems off and I don't normally think like that.

Oops, pressed send to soon

They are telling you it's happening. So I would deal with that and let them know that you are in charge of your DD, not them.

I would also be having a conversation with DD about not keeping secrets from you and training her to respond to their suggestions with 'you'll have to ask my mom and dad'.

His behaviour is very odd. I'm not going to say it's indicative of something sinister because I don't know enough about it just based off your post, but it's really important that you put the needs of your children ahead of the needs of your PIL.

I understand it's hard though, family rifts are very stressful and awkward. Make sure you and hubby support each other through this and make any decisions as a team.

Your FIL sounds like my Dad. He was never a sex offender (that I know of), but he was a violent woman abuser, and he’d think nothing of slapping or verbally abusing any female of any age who did not do exactly what he wanted.

The playing thing is huge great big neon flag hung out for all to see. He can see that she’s frightened and upset, and continues to do it because he likes having that power over a small child.

Please don’t allow your child to be alone with this man at such a young age.

"DD says she'd be OK with it"

Being OK with it isn't the same as wanting to do it, is it?

He refuses to listen to her cues, ignores her when she's had enough and has to be told - repeatedly - to stop rough housing. No, I would not be leaving her alone with him.

His wants do not trump her needs; at age 5 she is very vulnerable. If you go ahead with this then what are you going to do when he refuses to back off from tickling her, she gets upset and doesn't want him to pick her up anymore?

The only reason you are hesitating about this is because you are scared of his reaction and causing a row. But ask yourself, if you knew that him and MIL would be fine with you saying 'no', then would you? There's your answer.

"The only reason you are hesitating about this is because you are scared of his reaction and causing a row. "

Yup-don't be offering up your daughter to keep the peace!

Please do not male this your dd choice. She is clearly anxious and uncomfortable. She is very young and cannot make decisions re sleepovers etc and it is too much pressure - she is trying to guess what the ‘right answer’ is.
Tell PIL - no - no sleepovers, no pickups. Stop the madness. Tell them you will invite them over when convenient. Stop being scared of PIL and work on dd self confidence.m

It's a no from me.but then I put up with a grandparent who was forever getting me to sit on his knee and he'd touch my bum..mum would say just keep out of his way.
It becomes normal the way each grandparent does things. No wonder she just said ok.rather than yes please I'd love to go..she probably thinks she hasn't got a choice..she probably dosnt want to upset fil,any more than you do..hope you manage to stand up for her op...don't leave her alone with him.he dosnt sound nice.

Ask him what doess he want to do with her that he cant do when you are there? Yes I know relationships are different with trusted adult when parents are not there, but he is not building trust, quite the reverse. Why should your dc be left with someone she knows you and her dad are uncomfortable with. Teaching her to internalise conflict and not trust her gut. This will escalate. Mummy says no. Obvs he has been alone with her as otherwise you would have heard conversation about it and stepped in with 'silly grandad, of course we can't do that, we always.....on the way home from school.
Best confront it, excuses are not going to be enough

This isn't a case of assuming, it might be just a Grandad being too pushy. But he isn't respecting his DGD's boundaries over the tickling and rough play; at the very least it could be s very uncomfortable couple of hours for the OP's DD

Exactly @lizzie48. That in itself is deeply unpleasant, and if he were the father rather than the grandfather, if the kid was subjected to all that all the time, not just the tickling and rough play but also the anger when he doesn't immediately get his way - then it would be emotionally abusive. Repeated behaviour like that will teach a child that angry people need to be placated, and that is more important than their own needs including the need to be able to say what happens to one's own body.

It's odd, with the sexual abuse angle, I think people focus on the wrong bit which is the sick sexual attraction to children. That's only half of it. The other half is having so little respect for other people as people that you would abuse someone because you wanted to. That lack of respect seems to me to be on the far end of a continuum, with unwanted rough play and tickling on the same continuum. You know? What I would want to know from grands is, is it enough that the kid doesn't like it that you would stop - whatever it is? If it's not enough, I don't care whether there's a sexual motivation or not, you're at the very least never going to spend time with my kids unless I am there.

Oh, and no secrets ever, about anything is a good rule.

I am a grandparent carer appointed through the family courts. Prior to placement, and I have other gc's, I have never, ever pushed to collect children from school. It was not my "right". I wait to be asked. I am invited to school plays etc sometimes and am happy to accept when invited. I appreciate some grandparents dont see as much of their gc's as they would like.

I am not saying there is abuse as it is one hell of a leap from collecting a child from school to this. But he is very pushy and full on and this will be unchecked if unsupervised. If your inner voice is telling you no, do listen as it does not matter what anyone else says.

As a child, an uncle would tickle me roughly until I was crying but it could look like tears of laughter. I absolutely hated it and avoided any situation where he was alone with me. He would even wait for me outside the loo and jump on me laughing. Don't let this be your dd.