To ask for advice re PILs?

[Stormwhale]

Just a disclaimer, I am pregnant, hormonal, tired and there is a long history of us making an effort with the PILs, but it not always being an easy relationship. I can go more into that if necessary, but it will be very long.

Dd (5) is fond of PILs, but is wary of fil as he can ignore her boundaries when it comes to tickling, or rough play to the point where she is upset. He just doesn't seem to naturally know how to relate to her without all the rough play. I will always stop him when I see this happening, same as I would with anyone else.

Over Christmas he asked dd (without talking to us) if he can come and collect her from school and walk her home one day a week. She agreed. This then escalated to him telling her that she could then come home with him sometimes and stay over (this has never happened before) to which she said no, that she didn't want to. We told her that was absolutely fine, and she didn't have to go anywhere she didn't want to.

Last week we got a phonecall to tell us that on Friday pil will be coming with to collect dd from school, and will then start on his own the next week. There was no question, it was an order. This put our backs up and dh said no, that hadn't been arranged and wasn't convenient.

At the same time I started to feel very anxious about the whole thing. I'm worried that dd has been struggling at school a bit since going back after Christmas and seems quite emotional at the minute. Dh and I ended up having a disagreement as he feels we have already agreed to it. We have since spoken more and are more on the same page. He understands that I'm struggling a bit with anxiety at the moment, my hormones are all over the place and this is a stressful situation.

So yesterday Dh starts getting repeated FaceTime calls from fil. He didn't answer as it wasn't convenient. We were out for two important birthday celebrations. He also received messages from mil asking what day fil can come with to the school so he can start collecting her the next week. He replied briefly, explaining where we were but didn't specify a day. He did pop over there yesterday evening though, but unfortunately was met with a barrage of abuse off of fil about him not answering the FaceTimes and how he wants to see his grand daughter, he hasn't seen her in two weeks. Dh replied that he will have to wait as we have been busy. I will just point out that they saw dd 3 or 4 times over the Christmas break including on Christmas day.

I don't know where to go from here. I want a good relationship with them, but it feels like our wants and needs are being trampled all over, and they are being far too pushy. I don't feel comfortable about the pick up situation, but it feels like there is no way out. I'm worried he will use it as an opportunity to convince dd she should be going for sleepovers when she doesn't want to.

The FaceTime issue is getting to me as well, as it feels so intrusive and if we ignore it fil clearly kicks off. It's not always convenient or appropriate depending on what we are doing.

I know it's easy to say just say no to what they want, but it will cause a rift. We have worked hard at the relationship with them while trying to keep our own boundaries, but this feels like it's pushing too far.

Any outside insight would be great.

So many people go on about red flags and issues- surely this is nice that grandparents (both of them I presume?) Want to collect your DD?

It would be nice if it was requested to the parents (not the DD) and if the parents’ response was respected. Informing the parents “I will be picking up your DD one day a week from next week” and then kicking off when this isn’t immediately granted is not nice.

Stormwhale
Do not 'blame' your pregnancy anxiety on you not being happy with your fil's suggestion.
Most posters agree it's just is not on.
Personally I find it very creepy and no way would I allow him collect her or ever be alone with her. If he collects her and your mil is at work he will be alone with her ?? !!
How dare he !!
Show this thread to your dh.

Why does everyone always on here jump to the conclusion that a child is being groomed by an adult if they want to spend time with their grandchild ffs. If you don't have the best relationship with your fil and it is causing your anxiety to spike then say no but some of the replies on here are just so baffling.

Massive alarm bells for me, especially the unwanted rough play and tickling, he really isn't respecting your DD's boundaries. And I would be very worried about his insistence on alone time with her after school; he's also totally out of order asking your DD, it really is your call!

I know I'm paranoid being a survivor of childhood SA, but I think in this case this is genuinely disturbing. Don't assume your DD will tell you if anything untoward happens; DSis and I didn't tell DM what our F was doing to us. She was devastated when we told her about it a few years ago!

Stay firm on this. You should trust your gut.

The lack of boundary respect and the insistence on picking her up would really bother me. He sounds like the type of person that would just turn up to school anyway, then make a fuss in front of DD and manipulate the situation to try and make you look bad for not letting her go.

Of course it's nice for GPs to make a nice offer, but it doesn't sound like he did.

Pil sound overwhelming and intrusive. It doesn’t mean he is abusive though.

However I do think you just say “picking her up isn’t convenient at the moment. She’s unsettled at school and we’ve been advised not to change her routine”.

If they keep on, just repeat the above.

It sounds like he doesn’t understand why you keep saying no, so is pushing harder and harder to get you to change your mind. Which is the wrong way to approach it, but I guess he doesn’t have the emotional intelligence to see that. I don’t think his pushing the issue automatically makes him suspicious.

Perhaps a firm boundary is needed. No, dd is not ready, she’s tired and it would be too much. Perhaps in a few years we’ll revisit this. Assertive but firm. Ignore any subsequent shouting and tantrums and repeat the above.

I’d also drop the issue with your dd. She’s 5, and possibly replying with what she thinks is the right thing to say.

This isn't a case of assuming, it might be just a Grandad being too pushy. But he isn't respecting his DGD's boundaries over the tickling and rough play; at the very least it could be s very uncomfortable couple of hours for the OP's DD.

He also shouldn't be demanding, it isn't his call to make,

You are uneasy re her grandad for very good reason; I would not ignore that. Also in any case you have cited a lot of red flags re these people in your initial post. You are the parent here and she is reliant on your good guidance here. Your child is not old enough to make such decisions on she being collected from school re her grandad.

There is always a way out, you present a united front and keep on saying no this does not work for us.

Why do you still want a good relationship with them?. They are not your parents either, they are his. Your H is key here. You likely came from a nice and importantly an emotionally healthy family, your H clearly did not. Not all people are safe to be around. They are not having a good relationship with you people at all, all he wants in particular is his own way and is also not above throwing a tantrum when he does not get this. The man has actively tried and continues to want to trample all over your (too low) boundaries.

Why on earth is it creepy for a Grandfather to want to pick his grandchild up? My FIL picks DD up one day a week from pre-school! they go back to his house and she spends the afternoon with Grandma and Grandad
My Dad used to pick her up and have her for the afternoon on his own when I was working!

IME (with my own pushy, overbearing PILs), you have to train these people how to behave appropriately. So the more they push, the more you withdraw. The more demands they make, the less they see of you. Then you reward any respect for your boundaries with more contact, gradually.

I would tell PIL that dd is feeling unsettled at school and that situation gets resolved you feel it's best that she comes home. Have you spoken to her teacher about the source of the unease?

Your PIL are keen to spend time with their grandchild. Walking home from school what is the concern? Ffs.

Say no to sleepover if it puts your mind at rest.

alarm bells. Not respecting your child's boundaries .Not respecting you when you advise him not to'rough play' thinking they have the right to access your child when you have said no and kicking off when you refuse.

I spent 14 years working in the field of child sexual abuse (on the prosecution side of things) and I find this very disturbing. This is not a loving grandfather wanting to spend time with his granddaughter...this is a man manipulating and bullying his way into unsupervised access to a small child that the child's own parents do not want.

Be wary.

I am one of those who jumped to the conclusion..the reason I did this and jumped to the conclusion is because it happens...out there in the real world...by people you would never expect..it starts in plain sight and develops step by step ....its control..its an abuse of power..its divide and conquer....lets just beg to differ and hopefully fingers crossed its just a straight forward power struggle in law style with yet another little one being used as a pawn in the middle....either way its totally unhealthy

I wouldn't allow anyone collect my DDs from school, apart from other mothers on the school run. Why not tell your PiL that it will cause problems with the school re safeguarding?

So you trust strangers, and tell lies about safeguarding? It wouldn't cause safeguarding issue at all. The lies that are glibly offered in this forum is shocking.

I would allow the pick ups as DD seems okay with it. But stop at any point if that changed. I wouldn't allow sleepovers as she's not comfortable with it. I would say that due to her soon having a younger sibling I don't want her feeling pushed out and as if she is being sent to her grandparents due to the new baby.

I do agree with pps that jumping to him being abusive is extreme. He hasn't given you any indication so far that he is, so unless he does it's unfair to look at it that way. It sounds much more like an over-eager grandparent who wants time with his grandchild without parents there, as most grandparents seem to want to (I think so they can spoil them rotten without parent interference).

In this case I'd guess it's due to jealousy, if he knows she likes staying at your parents, he probably wants to be the 'favourite' grandparent. That being said, I still wouldn't allow sleepovers until DD was happy to and would be alert to her being uncomfortable with pick ups/sleepovers at any point (as I would with any adult though).

stormwhale,

"At the moment dd is the only grandchild. It has been very intense from the get go with us trying to allow a relationship, but while protecting her from that intensity. I think it comes from a good place, but it is just way too much. He can be controlling and it took dh a long time to get out from that control"

All that is a huge red flag as well. Controlling behaviour is abusive behaviour at its heart; that is all about power and control. This man still wants absolute over your DH and you for that matter and will use your child too for that end.

Do you really still think his behaviour comes from a good place, where has that mindset of yours come from?. That is really your own naiveaty talking. Your DHs father is not a safe person to be at all around.

Your H knows his parents all too well here and I would also argue that he has still not managed to completely free himself from his dad's control. Clearly he has not. And you are still caught up in his family's dysfunction.

No way.

I don't like the way they're going about it at all and the ignoring boundaries is a huge red flag. Personally I wouldn't allow FIL to be alone with DD from what you've described. Even if he has good intentions (although he sounds clueless and selfish at best) he's making her uncomfortable and I wouldn't have a 5 year old in that position.

You and your DH need to sort this out now. Your DD is resting on you as her parents to protect her and put her needs first- sod the bullying PIL and their tantrumming. I wouldn't give a fig if they strop- they're adults, she's a child. No grandparent has a "right" to collect their GC from school and your FIL should know better than suggesting sleepovers which to be honest is just plain creepy.

She has never been left alone with them because of the issue with fil not understanding dds cues. From the second she was born he has been so over excited around her that it was unbareable. He constantly shouts her name until she shows him attention, doesn't stop when she has clearly had enough of him. This started when she was a new born, and he would shout her name in her face to try and make her look at him and then it continued from there. We have had 5 years of careful conversations where we point out that his behaviour is not right and show him how to behave around her. It is sort of better, but it has taken years of correcting him to get there. I'm exhausted by it.

OP it is good that you and DH are on the same page. It does not matter why your DD does not want to spend time with FIL but she doesn’t and it’s good that your supporting her with this. That said If FIL keeps breaking her boundaries your DH needs to explain to him why this is so wrong eg children, especially girls need to learn autonomy over the their bodies etc.

You and DH need to decide together how you will react when they step up their odd behaviour. The toxic pil book might be useful.

I would mention to school that you are worried about her and ask if a member of staff can check in with her occasionally as well as telling DD yourself that she can tell you anything. It’s always good to keep communication channels open.

Juells advance search me. I have been here for years with three name changes since I was pregnant with dd. I have an extensive posting history. Report me if you have concerns.

I also find this very disturbing.

Is your DD really okay with this, after all she is only young herself and is really not emotionally capable of making such decisions. Children are very much indiscriminate in how they give love and will give it to grandparents who are really not worthy of receiving it. She is reliant on her own parents good judgment here to keep her safe. They are not safe themselves around her FIL and he is indeed using emotional based manipulation to get his own way.

BTW OP what do you know yourself about your DH's childhood at the hands of his parents?.

Hi OP

I think you and DP need to step up to this issue and nip it in the bud.
If you are not happy with PILs collecting DD from school, there is no reason in the world why you should be forced into this situation.

Most importantly, DD seems very uneasy with things e.g. the sleepover and her wishes should take priority over PILs' wishes and wants.

It is tricky trying to keep relationships smooth with family/in-laws, but not at the expense of DD's happiness- or yours for that matter.

Grandparents do not have the god given right to dictate to your family and children, everything should go via you and DP and ensure you are all happy with arrangements.

DOn't let DP be pushed into it by his full parents. My DH lets his mum take over often and do things with our DC1 that I am not happy with, suffice to say it causes lots of arguments and stress between DH and I.

You and your DP need to be on the same page on this matter.
Also, your DD does seem unhappy at the moment, maybe explore that more...I'm not saying anything sinister is going on, but I think you need to address things head on.

Good luck