To ask for advice re PILs?

[Stormwhale]

Just a disclaimer, I am pregnant, hormonal, tired and there is a long history of us making an effort with the PILs, but it not always being an easy relationship. I can go more into that if necessary, but it will be very long.

Dd (5) is fond of PILs, but is wary of fil as he can ignore her boundaries when it comes to tickling, or rough play to the point where she is upset. He just doesn't seem to naturally know how to relate to her without all the rough play. I will always stop him when I see this happening, same as I would with anyone else.

Over Christmas he asked dd (without talking to us) if he can come and collect her from school and walk her home one day a week. She agreed. This then escalated to him telling her that she could then come home with him sometimes and stay over (this has never happened before) to which she said no, that she didn't want to. We told her that was absolutely fine, and she didn't have to go anywhere she didn't want to.

Last week we got a phonecall to tell us that on Friday pil will be coming with to collect dd from school, and will then start on his own the next week. There was no question, it was an order. This put our backs up and dh said no, that hadn't been arranged and wasn't convenient.

At the same time I started to feel very anxious about the whole thing. I'm worried that dd has been struggling at school a bit since going back after Christmas and seems quite emotional at the minute. Dh and I ended up having a disagreement as he feels we have already agreed to it. We have since spoken more and are more on the same page. He understands that I'm struggling a bit with anxiety at the moment, my hormones are all over the place and this is a stressful situation.

So yesterday Dh starts getting repeated FaceTime calls from fil. He didn't answer as it wasn't convenient. We were out for two important birthday celebrations. He also received messages from mil asking what day fil can come with to the school so he can start collecting her the next week. He replied briefly, explaining where we were but didn't specify a day. He did pop over there yesterday evening though, but unfortunately was met with a barrage of abuse off of fil about him not answering the FaceTimes and how he wants to see his grand daughter, he hasn't seen her in two weeks. Dh replied that he will have to wait as we have been busy. I will just point out that they saw dd 3 or 4 times over the Christmas break including on Christmas day.

I don't know where to go from here. I want a good relationship with them, but it feels like our wants and needs are being trampled all over, and they are being far too pushy. I don't feel comfortable about the pick up situation, but it feels like there is no way out. I'm worried he will use it as an opportunity to convince dd she should be going for sleepovers when she doesn't want to.

The FaceTime issue is getting to me as well, as it feels so intrusive and if we ignore it fil clearly kicks off. It's not always convenient or appropriate depending on what we are doing.

I know it's easy to say just say no to what they want, but it will cause a rift. We have worked hard at the relationship with them while trying to keep our own boundaries, but this feels like it's pushing too far.

Any outside insight would be great.

You posted about the tickling issues before I think? I thought it was extremely odd then (apologies if not same poster)

I agree with PP. You and DH have to decide between offering up DD as a sacrifice for abuse (because tickling a child until they are tearful and begging for it to stop is abusive) or upsetting FIL.

In simple terms that is it. Do you still want to appease them, or are you going to stand firm, as you have done so far, and say no FIL, that IS NOT going to happen.

Sorry I'm struggling a bit with keeping up with the replies. I will be showing this to dh so he can see that it doesn't seem right to others either. He wants to support me, especially while I'm having a difficult pregnancy, but both of us don't really feel able to deal with the fall out. Of course we will to protect dd, but it feels stressful and worrying at a time when we could both do without it.

I do not think fil is an abuser. I have no reason to believe that. I just feel that the way he goes about things is all wrong and yes he can be controlling. Dh's childhood wasn't great, no.

I just don't need this at the minute. I have health problems, so does dh and we are muddling through a difficult pregnancy and supporting dd in her first year at school. I just feel overwhelmed and anxious.

Just to confirm he has not been alone with her. He asked her right in front of us, but with no previous conversation about it. We were all very much put on the spot.

Yes I have posted about the tickling. I took the advice and had a firm conversation about bodily autonomy and so did dh. We pointed out what it was teaching her if she says no and that is ignored. We have since pulled him up on it every single time. She says no, it means no, and we stop it.

I'd be telling the school that unless stated by you, not to let her go with anyone else.

My dd was abused by a relative with 4 other adults in the house.
Your dd is uncomfortable around him. Regardless of why, listen to her. You repeatedly asking her if she wants to go with him is just grinding her down to say yes it's fine when it really isn't. . Don't offer your dd up to keep the peace with the pil.

Storm I’ve only read your posts.

This has set off my spidey senses in a huge way. Do not let this man spend time alone with your dd. In fact, if you were to decide not to see fil at all I’d personally think of that as a good move.

This sounds really worrying. You need to get DH to back you up on this. Your DD's wishes, not to mention safety, is the most important thing. Not his.

" We have since pulled him up on it every single time."

He might not be an abuser, but he's a bully who just doesn't listen.

You might not feel up to dealing with things-but you have to for your daughter's sake as she can't.

Which leads onto-how do you think that she as a child being pressured is feeling when two adults are finding it hard to stand up to him?

Don't pussyfoot or try to compromise.

Tell him no & mean it.

OP, I really feel for you. It sounds like you have an awful lot on your plate at the moment.

However, reading between the lines, I can't help feeling that letting the shitstorm that would arise from saying no to FIL happen would be a positive move.

What's the worst that could happen? They don't speak to you any more? Get the flags out!! I suspect getting rid of them could be the best present you ever give yourselves, mentally and emotionally.

Cuppy I'm starting to think you might be right.

Thank you all for the advice. Dh and I are going to talk tonight once dd is in bed and formulate a plan. I just hope we don't get a barrage of FaceTimes, phone calls and messages today before that time to talk and make sure we are 100% on the same page.

It sounds to me as if they know your parents do sleepovers and they want to too, but are going about it very badly.

Instead of getting into a routine where they pick up and have her every week, how about she has a sleepover with them one weekend when MIL can be there too, as a one-off?

You never put a little girl at risk with a demanding aggressive grandparent because you don't want a rift. There is no doubt he will manipulate your dd during time alone with her to get what he wants. Are you going to allow that because you fear a rift? Grandparents have no rights. He is a bully and as such you are duty bound to protect your little girl noticed in because you have other problems. That is neglect.

• Not cave in. Changed to 'notice' which doesnt make sense sorry.

Haven't RTFT as pages keep coming up blank but someonr early on said to inform the school that PIL do not have permission to collect DD. I agree completely with this. They shouldn't let her go anyway but at least there will be no confusion.

You're doing good with the tickling. I wasn't listened to when I said to stop tickling. Parents still laugh about how it used to make me wee myself. No, I wee-ed on purpose because being shouted at and humilated was better than being tickled. So keep it up. Your DD will appreciate it.

If DD doesn't want it, or you feel uncomfortable with it, then you are under no obligation to let PIL pick up DD or have sleepovers. Whilst I don't jump to the abuse scenario straight away, if your gut is say no, then listen to it.

Your responsibility to your DD is more important than your relationship with PIL. It's easier said than done I know, but find a phrase that you feel comfortable with eg "thank you for your offer and we'll definately consider when DD is older". and just keep repeating it. You don't need an excuse or reason but something like the above phrase can be used as a vague "she's too young" excuse. Don't be drawn into timeframes though.

Just keep repeating the same phrase and not getting drawn into it.

Make sure your DD knows you are backing her up and she won't be made to do anything she doesn't want to. Also make sure she knows she isn't to go with them after school etc. Not sure how to tell her that without scaring her though.

I can't believe you've already had conversations with him about the tickling and it's still going on.

In light of that if he ever touched my DD in a way I'd explicitly told him not to again I would hit the roof. I understand you're stressed but stop placating this abusive bully!

Block his number today to avoid the stress and tell PIL your phones aren't working because of a problem with the contract if it makes it easier. I hate FaceTime it's so invasive.

Op what an infuriating situation to be in. And it's awful that fil cannot even be trusted not to try and brain wash her into a sleep over she doesn't want.
We used to have this too.it's awful.

I wonder if counselling would help? Maybe a few relate sessions? It might help to shore you both up.

The pressure this man is putting you under is awful I feel cross for you.

It sounds difficult because he just wants to spend time with his dgc, you have asked dd a couple of times now and she is happy to be collected from school by him so why don’t you allow him to collect her and then he has to bring her to your house where he can stay for an hour or so with her. Get him to help her with her homework, reading etc nice and calm activities. He is obviously trying too hard and if he has a tendency to be controlling then you need to monitor his time with her initially. Being a bad parent does not automatically make you a bad grandparent, just follow your daughters cues and make sure you check him when he is over stepping. You are lucky to have two sets of grandparents who want to be involved, my parents were on hand for everything, DH parents ....his mum is a disengaged person and his father ....he is a dick to be honest. Didn’t even bother to congratulate my youngest on his 18th birthday.

Her daughter is five and is not emotionally mature enough to be making decisions re her grandad here. Her grandad has and continues to control and belittle both his son and the OP here. Not all relations are nice and her FIL comes across in OPs posts as being particularly nasty.

The thing that I wouldn't like is that he asks your DD and not you. He is putting a 5 year-old in an impossible position.

Don't let her go. If he wants to see her then invite them to yours. (if you want to)

The fact that he asked your Dd this first without speaking to you makes this an automatic no, for me.

He sounds like a bullying control freak at best.

It isn’t up to your Dd, either.

How many times now has she been asked about the pick up and staying over? It is too much pressure on her. Even being re-assured that she doesn’t have to agree: to a child re-assuring them can signal that there is something to be re-assured about.

Just say you are not prepared or ready to put a regular arrangement in place, it isn’t convenient for plsyfstes etc, and Dd is still a bit tired and emotional starting school, and exhausted by Fridays.

Say you will make the usual family time at weekends.

Just say No.

"I do not think fil is an abuser. I have no reason to believe that. I just feel that the way he goes about things is all wrong and yes he can be controlling. Dh's childhood wasn't great, no".

What would you call him then if not an abuser?. Not surprised either to read that last sentence, he after all grew up with a tyrannical dad.
Where's his wife, your MIL, in all this?. I have read very little about her apart from the fact that she works. What is her role here?

Controlling behaviour is abusive behaviour because it is rooted in power and control. Abuse is not solely physical in nature. This man wants absolute power and control here, not just over you two, but over your DD as well. Both of you are mixed up and swirling around trying to deal with low self worth and inertia as well as your own fear, obligation and guilt (your H in particular is likely mired in inertia and FOG because of his father's ill treatment of him).

Please don't allow your child to be alone with this man. MASSIVE red flags are waving.

My spidey senses went off the scale at your OP.
The fact that she BEGS to sleep over at maternal GPs and is only 'ok' with being picked up by a man who has no respect for her boundaries is scary.
Please do not allow this.
Your DH has not yet been able to fully escape the control element. Control of another person against their will is abusive.
And (sorry to appear so judgy, sexist and ageist) how many men of this age actively seek out childcare when their wives are not there to do the grunt work? Not any, IME.
OP. please listen to the PP who works in prosecuting abuse cases.