To ask for advice re PILs?

[Stormwhale]

Just a disclaimer, I am pregnant, hormonal, tired and there is a long history of us making an effort with the PILs, but it not always being an easy relationship. I can go more into that if necessary, but it will be very long.

Dd (5) is fond of PILs, but is wary of fil as he can ignore her boundaries when it comes to tickling, or rough play to the point where she is upset. He just doesn't seem to naturally know how to relate to her without all the rough play. I will always stop him when I see this happening, same as I would with anyone else.

Over Christmas he asked dd (without talking to us) if he can come and collect her from school and walk her home one day a week. She agreed. This then escalated to him telling her that she could then come home with him sometimes and stay over (this has never happened before) to which she said no, that she didn't want to. We told her that was absolutely fine, and she didn't have to go anywhere she didn't want to.

Last week we got a phonecall to tell us that on Friday pil will be coming with to collect dd from school, and will then start on his own the next week. There was no question, it was an order. This put our backs up and dh said no, that hadn't been arranged and wasn't convenient.

At the same time I started to feel very anxious about the whole thing. I'm worried that dd has been struggling at school a bit since going back after Christmas and seems quite emotional at the minute. Dh and I ended up having a disagreement as he feels we have already agreed to it. We have since spoken more and are more on the same page. He understands that I'm struggling a bit with anxiety at the moment, my hormones are all over the place and this is a stressful situation.

So yesterday Dh starts getting repeated FaceTime calls from fil. He didn't answer as it wasn't convenient. We were out for two important birthday celebrations. He also received messages from mil asking what day fil can come with to the school so he can start collecting her the next week. He replied briefly, explaining where we were but didn't specify a day. He did pop over there yesterday evening though, but unfortunately was met with a barrage of abuse off of fil about him not answering the FaceTimes and how he wants to see his grand daughter, he hasn't seen her in two weeks. Dh replied that he will have to wait as we have been busy. I will just point out that they saw dd 3 or 4 times over the Christmas break including on Christmas day.

I don't know where to go from here. I want a good relationship with them, but it feels like our wants and needs are being trampled all over, and they are being far too pushy. I don't feel comfortable about the pick up situation, but it feels like there is no way out. I'm worried he will use it as an opportunity to convince dd she should be going for sleepovers when she doesn't want to.

The FaceTime issue is getting to me as well, as it feels so intrusive and if we ignore it fil clearly kicks off. It's not always convenient or appropriate depending on what we are doing.

I know it's easy to say just say no to what they want, but it will cause a rift. We have worked hard at the relationship with them while trying to keep our own boundaries, but this feels like it's pushing too far.

Any outside insight would be great.

Looks like you and DH didn't agree to it, but he asked your daughter! That was inappropriate in itself! Red flags! Just say no. It sounds creepy, from the way it was done to the reason why to how upset he's getting over not having his way.

OP im glad you sent that message. Siting grandparents are lovely. He doesn't sound like one. Forcing a child to kiss him? Shouting in her face to get attention? And the tickling thing? He sounds a bit unhinged and I think you've done exactly the right thing!

Doting not sitting

OP, growing up we had a family friend who liked to tickle young girls. I hated it because it always felt invasive and I would get panicked when he wouldn’t stop. To prevent it I would sit on the sofa and kick my legs out violently so he couldn’t get me.

Thank god I did, because by the time I was 14 he was in prison serving a very long sentence for sexually abusing his step granddaughter over many years.

This from @fc301 needs repeating:
You say "he is not an abuser" but finish the same paragraph with "he is controlling"!!

OK so let's assume there is no risk of sexual abuse here despite the evidence.

Is there risk of emotional abuse?
What do we KNOW?
He's bullying
He is trying to seize control
He does not respect boundaries
He makes your daughter feel uncomfortable
You have had to carefully manage his contact with her thus far
He is determined to get her alone
He rides roughshod over the wishes of her parents
His treatment of your DH in childhood has left a legacy to this day

Hmm ... are you SERIOUSLY saying that you are going to agree to offer up your own daughter to keep the peace?

You only have to read on this forum to find people who have suffered both SA & EA who will say that actually long term it is the EA which forms the deepest scars. Please please protect her.

I was a victim of CSA. Most of my friends also were - I could name more than 20 here. NONE of us have ever reported it to the police.
My CSA took place with my parents IN the room. My Mum was on high alert due to her having had CSA! Mine started with unwanted tickling and not respecting boundaries.

I think you need to be very clear to FIL and say "stop touching her - she doesn't like it". Every. Single. Time.

I'd also be going NC or even possibly moving away. There is something very, very, very wrong with your FIL's behaviour towards your DD.

He is determined to get her alone isn't he. Why is that?

Yanbu

One of my ILs is like this. V demanding. Give an inch and they want a yard. Keep then at arms length. Do not give in. DH must be on side. It is abusive making demands to adult children and tantruming when not getting own way and fullcontrol. They prob want to control DD. Mine use emotional blackmail on older DC. We have minimum supervised contact. When we had given what they wanted they simply wanted more and more.

Absolutely trust your gut. I'm sure I will be told I'm a terrible mum, but I have told my children that if someone is touching them and they don't like it to tell them to stop, after telling them twice it's ok to kick or bite them. This is for adults and children. Maybe if gd gets a kick in the shin he might understand boundaries, especially if you make a big fuss about how proud of her you are.

Graphista
Canifindthem

I can't really add any advice that hasn't already been given.

Have personal experience of having no voice, no autonomy within my family. I still have problems with boundaries to this day. Made me vulnerable to horrible partners and vile ex husband. Takes me ages to process things to work out what emotion I am really feeling.

You don't stand much chance of having healthy emotions and responses if your autonomy isn't allowed and reinforced within the family. I wish just one person had safeguarded me. But that is the nature of dysfunctional, damaged families, I suppose.

Your dd is blessed to have you and your husband supporting her, being aware of the danger and taking steps to keep her safe. Like others have said, if fil kicks off and goes nuclear then NC. Simple as. What exactly would you being losing out on?

CanIFindThem it was an important post.

I agree with all the other posters, I felt very uncomfortable reading this. Especially when you said he doesn't know boundaries with tickling etc. X

Stick to your guns, OP. As others have said, if you and your husband are worried about standing up to this man, your 5 year old daughter would have no chance. Protecting her is your priority.

One of the worst things about experiencing CSA (in my case, one of my brothers, last time I saw the POS he was behaving exactly as you describe to every female in touching distance), is the people who turn a blind eye for fear of making a fuss. That betrayal is worse for me in some ways than the abuse itself.

My dad wasn’t abusive, he was just too spineless to protect his daughter. He will go to his grave knowing I do not forgive him for allowing my brother and mother to continue their abuse unchecked. I’m not even angry, I just want nothing more to do with someone who didn’t value his helpless daughter enough to protect her.

Keep in mind how your daughter will view this with adult eyes. She needs you, you’re on the right track, don’t cave in. Xx

To those of you that have shared your harrowing experiences of CSA, I wanted to say thank you and to reassure you that we will not allow anything like that to happen to our dd. The only people who have ever had dd unsupervised are my parents, who I know from my own childhood are no risk to her at all. They understand exactly where we are coming from about bodily autonomy, and would never dream of crossing her boundaries. I don't think I have ever seen my mum or dad tickle dd, it's just not the way they relate to her. They do craft activities, play games, look for trolls in the woods, snuggle for a story (at dds request) etc.

We know fil isn't normal and for that reason he truly has never been left unsupervised, at all. We are always in the room. This is not because we think he is a sexual abuser, but because we don't trust him to treat dd in the right way or stop when she says. I watch their interactions like a hawk.

Those of you who have commented on dh and his ability to deal with pils, you are right it isn't easy. I think seeing the way that my family behave towards each other has helped massively as he has an idea of normal and can see the difference.

Stormwhale it sounds like you're on top of this now.

Just keep remembering that a reasonable response to being told 'no' does not involve shouting and screaming and being verbally abusive. And that expecting you to offer up your DD as a bribe for not behaving badly is not normal.

He wants you to JADE: Justify / Argue / Defend / Explain. Each of these elements represents a chance to try and bully you, to shout and holler and get his own way. Don't engage. Don't explain and don't apologise.

Oh and I would strongly suggest counselling for your DH - it's really helpful.

I would put a stop to the tickling and rough play full stop. It is possible to abuse and touch sexually in a room full of people, a child doesn't need to be alone with someone for it to happen.

How did he talk to her alone then? Really cannot emphasise how quickly and secretly someone can abuse. Jimmy saville did it on camera on totp. However I don't think sexual abuse is the only concern, may not even be a probability, you know bullying and other inappropriate behaviour are happening.
There is also the issue of him building a relationship, having opportunities later to emotionally abuse and undermine her as well as you. It's confusing for her that he is not a nice person, don't trust him because he doesn't play nicely, is rude to mum and dad, but still have to see him.
If he can't behave warn him of the consequences and don't have contact. If he threatens no contact - good, because he won't be around to confuse dc and make demands. You won't always be able to keep her with you 24/7.
You really don't need this for years to come

I have already said, he didn't talk to her alone. He asked her right in front of us with no previous conversation putting us all on the spot.

Hadn't got that,sorry
.Well I understand sometimes you are gobsmacked, or need to process stuff but that was a missed chance right there to say, you have to ask me, I'm the parent, dc can't make those arrangements. He's v sneaky, trying to make it hard for you to say no, knows exactly what he's doing
Be strong and good luck with next one

OP, you keep saying she'll never be alone with him, but seem to have ignored the many people who have told you that SA can and does happen, in a room full of people.

I don't think you should allow him anywhere near your daughter. Preferably, you would go NC, but if not, keep her actually with you when he's around. Keep space between him and her, and do not allow him to even touch her.

Oh, and if he starts, leave the room or put the phone down, don't stand there trying to b reasonable

I agree with not allowing the tickling even to start. No physical stuff. If he tries it, keep saying 'No, she doesn't like it' over and over, as many times as you have to. Walk over and stand between them if needed. She will see you're protecting her.

Instead of kisses, giving a high five is a good alternative for kids too to avoid close contact.

I think you and dh need to give yourselves more credit.
Dealing with someone like fil is hard even without life/MH issues....and for your dh to feel strong enough to do this is actually a big deal.
I remember your previous thread and i'm not surprised fil upped the ante, mil doesn't 'challenge' him like this (or probably anyone else for that matter), so he will continue until somebody refuses to tolerate it anymore.
Right now that has to be you and dh because it involves your dc - you can't allow him to bring his family dynamic into yours.

I just hope we don't get a barrage of FaceTimes, phone calls and messages today before that time to talk and make sure we are 100% on the same page
You foiled his strategy!

Absolutely 0% chance of him having abused her. She has never been left alone with pils
I can understand why this rings severe alarm bells for a lot of people, anyone can be a sexual predator and are often abusive in other ways too....and these would be the classic signs if he is.
Hopefully fil's abusive nature doesn't go that far.

However - fil is an abuser because he chooses to behave in an abusive manner despite being told how it makers others feel and being told to stop.
He then tries a different tactic when you put a stop to his current one, he will not let it end.

He doesn't want to stop because he doesn't see it as wrong - his sense of entitlement is on the higher end of the narcissistic spectrum.
5 years of talking to him has got you nowhere really - he carries on and then uppes the ante.

He's going to keep pushing you until you reach the extremely low/nc stage.
Is this what youy still want to be dealing with after the baby arrives?
Or want dc2 to have to experience and tolerate like dc1 has to?
he knows what you're going through so he will continue adding to the pressure until you break.
so you and dh need to make your boundaries clear and don't be afraid to stick to them.

Graphista
CantFindThem

Thank you for both sharing your stories. Graphista. I know this isn’t the first time you’ve shared some of what you went through. You are both so brave.

StormWhale
Have you had the pants talk with your dd?