To ask for advice re PILs?

[Stormwhale]

Just a disclaimer, I am pregnant, hormonal, tired and there is a long history of us making an effort with the PILs, but it not always being an easy relationship. I can go more into that if necessary, but it will be very long.

Dd (5) is fond of PILs, but is wary of fil as he can ignore her boundaries when it comes to tickling, or rough play to the point where she is upset. He just doesn't seem to naturally know how to relate to her without all the rough play. I will always stop him when I see this happening, same as I would with anyone else.

Over Christmas he asked dd (without talking to us) if he can come and collect her from school and walk her home one day a week. She agreed. This then escalated to him telling her that she could then come home with him sometimes and stay over (this has never happened before) to which she said no, that she didn't want to. We told her that was absolutely fine, and she didn't have to go anywhere she didn't want to.

Last week we got a phonecall to tell us that on Friday pil will be coming with to collect dd from school, and will then start on his own the next week. There was no question, it was an order. This put our backs up and dh said no, that hadn't been arranged and wasn't convenient.

At the same time I started to feel very anxious about the whole thing. I'm worried that dd has been struggling at school a bit since going back after Christmas and seems quite emotional at the minute. Dh and I ended up having a disagreement as he feels we have already agreed to it. We have since spoken more and are more on the same page. He understands that I'm struggling a bit with anxiety at the moment, my hormones are all over the place and this is a stressful situation.

So yesterday Dh starts getting repeated FaceTime calls from fil. He didn't answer as it wasn't convenient. We were out for two important birthday celebrations. He also received messages from mil asking what day fil can come with to the school so he can start collecting her the next week. He replied briefly, explaining where we were but didn't specify a day. He did pop over there yesterday evening though, but unfortunately was met with a barrage of abuse off of fil about him not answering the FaceTimes and how he wants to see his grand daughter, he hasn't seen her in two weeks. Dh replied that he will have to wait as we have been busy. I will just point out that they saw dd 3 or 4 times over the Christmas break including on Christmas day.

I don't know where to go from here. I want a good relationship with them, but it feels like our wants and needs are being trampled all over, and they are being far too pushy. I don't feel comfortable about the pick up situation, but it feels like there is no way out. I'm worried he will use it as an opportunity to convince dd she should be going for sleepovers when she doesn't want to.

The FaceTime issue is getting to me as well, as it feels so intrusive and if we ignore it fil clearly kicks off. It's not always convenient or appropriate depending on what we are doing.

I know it's easy to say just say no to what they want, but it will cause a rift. We have worked hard at the relationship with them while trying to keep our own boundaries, but this feels like it's pushing too far.

Any outside insight would be great.

Sorry op - wasn’t insulting your dh. Just wondering why it was left to you. You sounded very stressed and I wondered why he wasn’t taking more of the load. Wasn’t meant to be a dig at him. Also take on board the comment that if this is normal parenting for him then he’s had a lifetime of being worn down.

I really do hope it all calms down. But please speak to the school tomorrow.

I don't think anyone insulted your DH?
It's true that he's been a victim of his own father, he's been abused and conditioned by him not to stand up to him. But I think that makes it all the more important for him to address the issues. It's a gradual process and he might not be ready. But in the long run he'll feel better if he's setting the boundaries. He does need to stand up for his family (ie his wife and child) and for himself, and he'll feel better for it. However, he may well need support from a counsellor. He could also consider reading Toxic Parents by Susan Forward.

The women often takes on "fixing" or at least trying to manage the relationship with difficult in-laws, and it's just more emotional labour and wife work. Plus it can often backfire if her husband doesn't back her up and/or if it allows the in-laws to make her a scapegoat.

I'm not insulting anyone, I'm just saying that you need to look after yourself OP and not take on the full burden of this. You and your DH are a team and should hopefully be supporting each other, but ultimately they're his parents.

Good on you for sending the message OP - but now you need to stand firm, and do so even if your DH falters, which would be understandable on his part. Do not allow this go ahead because MIL 'forgot' to pass the message on, or FIL 'misunderstood' and turned up anyway, or some other excuse. Make sure school are told firmly that he is not to collect her. 'We're having a few family issues at the moment' will do as an explanation, but be very clear with them that it is not allowed.

"Another part of that previous thread was him forcing her to kiss him." Wow! More red flags than the sodding kremlin!

Honestly? I wouldn't be letting any child of mine in 10 ft of this arse!!

You DEFINITELY need to speak to nspcc or similar.

It might be helpful if you were to say exactly what problems dh & bil had with fil in childhood. But I appreciate why you might choose not to.

"graphista

Amazing post. It should be saved somewhere on here. Thank you for taking the time to write it." Thank you

Yes "why is this person trying to control me?" Pertinent to this thread I think (though not the main reason I posted it)

"when usually (not on this thread) the same posters come on berating anyone for even the merest suggestion that a family members intentions may not be honourable." Yes I think partly the problem is those who've no experience of childhood abuse (of any kind) are sometimes extremely unaware of just how prevalent it is. Because victims (understandably) aren't open about it.

As I've grown older I've become aware of friends also being victims.

I've also in discussing with friends who's job (teaching, nursing, police, even a dentist) brings them into contact with victims found that they as a result of their experiences also think the official stats are very much tip of the iceberg. The nurses estimate someone discloses to them at least once a month and none are paediatric nurses.

"It's not normal to see your family struggling and kick off because you want your own way" you're absolutely right - remember that!

"Your reaction illustrates perfectly why we think this is a bad idea." This is an excellent response!

"It's all rather typical isn't it. The women in the family doing the communicating. The man not proactive or brave enough to talk to his own father." Sadly true.

My only concern is that I wonder if fil was abusive to mil when dh was growing up?

So far so good, but yes I'd still speak to the school that only designated people approved by you & dh can collect her from school. They'll sadly be well used to such instructions.

So sorry you're going through this OP. I got the creeps reading your first post and the more you say about FIL the more creepy and abusive he sounds. Constant tickling and forcing her to kiss him? No, just no. This is not a loving grandparent. This is something else and you need to protect your DD.

Make sure you tell the school that FIL is not allowed to pick up DD and ask for it to be flagged up on her records, so that if any supply teacher takes the class, they know as well.

And I agree with PPs who say older men do not normally seek to look after grandchildren on their own. The very idea would never have occurred to my dad in a million years.

He cannot be trusted around her therefore you can have a blanket rule that he is not allowed to be alone with her. He will hate the rule. Tough.

Do make sure you tell the school, by email as well as in person that the grandparents are not permitted to collect DD. Schools are used to this kind of thing. They won't be shocked. They won't judge. They will make sure that FIL does not take DD.

You have to get your head around the fact that he will make a scene some time soon and you will have to let him and do nothing to appease him because appeasement means throwing DD under the bus.

Regardless of the ‘ifs, buts and maybes’ around your fil, your dd has expressed her wish to not go home with him, that should be honoured.

OP I’m so Sorry that you are in this position - the most disturbing part for me is FIL shouting her name in her face repeatedly until she noticed as a newborn-it’s the most vomit inducing reaction I’ve had to a post on MN - he is cruel/violating/frightening/ conditioning/ abusive/controlling person- he sees your DD as a mistreated dog who must obey. Personally I’d go NC. Your poor DH will have likely had this the day he was born- your poor DH no wonder he struggles- hug them both and get FIL out of your life. Strong lady you can do it

IME (with my own pushy, overbearing PILs), you have to train these people how to behave appropriately. So the more they push, the more you withdraw. The more demands they make, the less they see of you. Then you reward any respect for your boundaries with more contact, gradually.

^ This is what we do, they want to see us more than we want to see them. It’s all about understanding who has the most to lose.

You did the right thing. He sounds unhinged and should be kept well away from your DD. You shouldn't have to manage another adults behavior. He is going to be trouble so keep him at arms length

I’m sorry you’re going through the stress of all of this OP, especially whilst expecting. I agree that red flags were raised for me by your first post. One tip: my mum sat me and DB down v early on in our lives to explain how people, even people we knew well might want to hurt us. She said to tell her if this ever happened and NEVER to believe the older person if they said things like this is our secret or I’ll hurt your parents if you tell etc. She gave us confidence to shout or walk away or tell the teacher/ her etc. by doing this. Have a similar chat with your DD. Make her understand that her body is her own and no one else can touch it without her permission. It’s never too early to tell this to our children. It also empowers them to know that if they feel uncomfortable they can tell someone and also tell DD that her telling the truth to you is more important than any big person telling fibs.

I think you should just go no contact. Think about moving if possible. Keep your dc away from him. Best wishes
Graphista, respect

forcing her to kiss him

For the love of god do not let your daughter be alone with this man. This is fucking disturbing. Does your DH have any sisters or just a brother?

We’re all on your side, and DH’s, OP. Let it all sink in but do not allow overnight unsupervised contact with your DD. It’s going to make you more upset if our red flags are right than if you limit FIL’s contact and he has a strop about it. Good luck and love to you xxx

I'm worried that dd has been struggling at school a bit since going back after Christmas and seems quite emotional at the minute.

Has FIL been alone with her at all?

I wouldn't give a flying fuck about a rift, they would be NC so fast they wouldn't know what's hit them

Probably picking up on all the tension, but give her chances to talk, ask her in a very ordinary way if she is worried about something or wants to tell you anything. Do drawing with her, things often come out then.
Just love and protect her op, you are doing fine.

@aaaaargghhhhelpme has written what I would say.

He isn't doing this out of love, he wants to control you and your DH via your child.

I'm glad you told them no, your dd is worth any potential row.

The last thing you want is to make your dd think you're off loading her when there's a baby arriving soon.

He's STILL rough playing and tickling despite you always stopping him. That needs to stop.

You're doing brilliantly, OP, practise saying no. You don't need to say why other than 'I don't want to'.

Gosh I found this so hard to read. When OP said he'd grabbed her DDs face to force her to kiss him...Jesus. I'm a terrible people pleasure and always have been, so I know what it feels like sometimes to think that you can't say anything because you don't want to cause a fuss or inconvenience the other person. Even so, I like to think that if I didn't have the presence of mind to react in the moment, that that would be the last time my child and I stepped over that man's threshold.

My PILS were exactly like this for the first 9 months of DD's life. When I finally put my foot down, all hell broke loose. Long story short, they haven't seen her since, or met DS who arrived 2 yrs later.

We are much much better off without them in our lives tbh. Obviously a much bigger story here but you need to trust your instincts. None of this behaviour is normal.

I think you are very wise to put a stop to FiL's demands. None of this is about what's good for your DD, it's all about what's good for him and as others have said, his behaviour is controlling and totally unacceptable.

I wish you and your DH strength to weather the storm which will no doubt be coming in your direction when the FiL is told of your decision.

Well done, OP! You must be relieved to have sent that message.

I also think he sounds awful and I wouldn't let him have any contact with your dd without you being there. Sorry to write that I wouldn't trust mil either as I wouldn't trust her not to allow him access.

Christ, I'm with 99% of the posters on here OP, your FIL's behaviour left me feeling literally sick to my stomach, red flags red flags red flags bloody everywhere.

I fucking LOATHE this tickling bullshit for the very same reasons as many posters have said, it can be used, as a disguise for crossing boundaries for inappropriate touching.
Well done for drawing a line for your own boundaries OP, for the sake of your Child you must maintain this.

Massive red flags for me too. I had an uncle like this. Turns out he was abusing his own daughter. Looking back He was always too excited to see little girls, looked for any excuse to cuddle, have us sit on his knee, touch us. He’d “accidentally “ walk in on us in the toilet and bathroom. Bum pinch etc. I always hated seeing him. Do not allow your daughter near him.

I never post on these kinds of threads because I have no experience with abuse at all so wouldn’t have anything to reference to, but something about your post gives me the shivers. I don’t come on MN too often, but I do actually remember your previous post because that one made me feel uneasy too. I would be incredibly wary of any man, relation or not, that didn’t respect my daughters boundaries. To me it sounds like she is uncomfortable around him but perhaps thinks it’s normal how he behaves as it’s all she’s used to. I would certainly be very protective of her around this man.

Hopefully the situation remains calm