James Bulger

[Monty27]

Hang your head in shame Vincent Lambre.
You low life creep.
Anyone?

I think mikado is right, they are obliged to tell a long-term partner, but are not permitted to tell others, including their GP/docter.

The reason for that was that their names had already been publicised and the judge did not want other names to be tossed into the hat. It was better to confirm the truth than to allow a number of other innocent names to get caught up in the mix too.

That's a good point, I had forgotten that.

Purely guessing now, but I think they would be permitted and encouraged to keep family contact, as isolation from family (even a previously or current dysfunctional family) would probably be detrimental.

We learn about the Nazis at school, how they were able to come to power, how they scapegoated Jewish people and were able to come to commit the atrocities they did. We debate how it was possible for ordinary people to stand by or even take part voluntarily in crimes of this sort. Is that 'an insult' to the victims of the Holocaust? Even if it includes 'humanising' the perpetrators, who were in fact humans? I don't think humanising means creating sympathy. How can attempting understand something be a bad thing?

If the film is prurient then of course that's disrespectful and if it's in any way graphic then I would struggle to see how that's justifiable, but I don't believe in censoring the arts or only having 'nice' art. An intelligent exploration of how two children could ever become capable of such an act actually sounds like a very important thing to me.

They don't have to tell anybody.
They are 'observed' and so protection is sort of on hand (of sorts) but they do not have to tell anybody. The less people know the less likely they'll be compromised.
If they tell a partner, in good faith, eventually that partner is likely to tell another trusted friend etc and eventually, someone will object and compromise the identity.

If anybody does a search on them via the BMD index, it goes to a special department, so the people who would normally look up a birth cert get a special notice to forward it to the special department (they do not know why and it's whilst it's not often, it's not that rare either).

'scuse typos

Both of Venables' parents visited him regularly at Red Bank

We learn about the Nazis at school, how they were able to come to power, how they scapegoated Jewish people and were able to come to commit the atrocities they did. We debate how it was possible for ordinary people to stand by or even take part voluntarily in crimes of this sort

So? Are you proposing to put these two boys on the school syllabus?

Can I say again, because it doesn’t seem to be going in, that I don’t believe art should be censored- that I don’t believe film should be good stuff only?
I, Daniel Blake managed to tackle contemporary issues without piggy-backing onsomeone else’s heart-ache. I appreciate that people have decided this drama is ‘important’ - more important than what the family thinks- but if your question is - why do children go bad? - there are a million ways you can broach the subject. This is not the only way.

Thanks Torn I assumed they would. I do think I've read one of them had to tell a partner.. possibly jv because of child sex abuse images... Would he be on register under current identity for that I wonder? I do often think of the people who saw them... That would never leave me.

I strongly think this film isn't needed and should never have been made. The reasons JV and RT killed could easily been studied by keeping them locked up. I don't support the death penalty, but find 8 years minimum for their crimes a complete slap in the face of James family.

I, only have total sympathy and respect for Ralph and Denise, JV and RT should have had at least 25 years to serve.
How the Bulger's have kept their dignity, I don't know. From 1st hand of losing my brother in an accident, which through grief and guilt, lead to my dad committing suicide 18 months later.
We have also lost 2 friends to murder, one who was killed on a 1st date and a second whilst she went to buy petrol, the murdered dumped her body 150 miles away and her car another 60 miles away. It took 2 weeks to find her body, we helped search for her, and had the police asking why we where in her contacts, she was our wedding 18 months before, only 22 when killed. Other was 24 and also at our wedding.
Luckily both killers where caught and sentenced to 21 and 26 years. But one will be 44 and the 49 when released, both are in prison, with access to family and TV games consoles. Whilst both of our friends families and friends are still devastated, we went and laid flowers at one of their favourite places on the anniversary only 2 days before Christmas.

But both parents, wanted the death penalty, I still let them think they are right, I seriously think if someone killed either of my boys, I would spend the rest of my life looking for the chance to kill them.

Don't tell people we need to understand that JV and RT are human, I know that, but so where James and our friends Helen and Kirsty, and so where their killers, I have seen both in the dock, of course humans kill. But in my opinion once you do so you should be in jail for life, you are not a human anymore, you are no more than an animal, like my terrier who follows instinct and inbreeding. Humans have self control and compassion

I'm sure that if someone killed my child I would want them dead. But the point is that, as a society, we simply cannot make these decisions based on people's revenge motivation. I believe that we cannot condemn people for killing others and then say the it's fine for us a society to kill in cold blood.

I also don't think you can say that every killer must be locked up for life automatically. Are we seriously not going to differentiate between, say, the Harold Shipmans of this world and people who kill after years of abuse, or when suffering from mental illness, or from fear, or to protect someone else? Or indeed a boy who kills at the age of 10 after suffering a horrendously abusive and neglected childhood?

SaturdayNext
The only sentence for murder is a life.
I don't believe in the death sentence, but I aren't a softie, you murder you lose your rights to a future, simple.
I am amazed how so many people put the futures of the likes of these two and the 2 men who murdered our friends above James, Helen and Kirsty futures and their families and friends, I am sure it so easy to look out for them when you never had a love one/friend murdered.
I can still remember, the exact place I was, when I heard both Helen and Kirsty murderers had been found guilty. In both cases I had to stop driving I was in tears. Why do those 2 b*stards, get to rebuild their lives in 2 and 5 years time, when we will never see our friends again and have to live for the rest of our lives, both girls parents and siblings have had a life sentence imposed on them, so why not the animals who did it.

Sorry Britain cares more about murders and criminals then it does victims, so wrong. It in the darkest hours makes me believe the death penalty should return, even though at 50 I have always thought that wrong.
I seriously don't trust the parole board or the probation service over the future supervision of murderers, so why not hang them?
I know deep down it's wrong, but so is the feeling, I get knowing that, in about 18 months that our friends killer will be free to walk in the same streets as my kids.

I guess most posters on here wont get it.

Thompson's mother moved very close to his unit at Barton Moss (Manchester) and visited him frequently. Ironically, he arguably had the more troubled childhood environment but has gone on to become a father.

He does not have a child.

But, again, 2Boys, are you putting all murderers into exactly the same bracket whether they kill once or several times, and irrespective of the circumstances in which they killed, with no chance of parole?

The danger of having identical sentences is that you lose the deterrent factor. Once someone has killed once, they have nothing to lose by killing again. Other issues apart, it can make it extremely dangerous for prison officers.

If a death sentence for murder were a deterrent, why hasn't it stopped murder in places where there is a death sentence?
Because it isn't a deterrent. State sanctioned murder is still murder.

I strongly think this film isn't needed and should never have been made.

But you could say that about many many films and documentaries. Free media means the right for expression etc you personally may. Nd offensive (hate laws, libel etc part)

2boysandaCairm

JV and RT should have had at least 25 years to serve.

What possible incentive would 10 year old boys have to reform if they were jailed for 25 years?

25 years would have seemed like an absolute lifetime to them.

It should feel like a lifetime. It should be a life sentence.

They do have a life sentence. They are out on licence. Do you know what that means?

MissingGeorgeMichael - how are you so sure he does not have a child? Can’t link, but there’s a article in the Mail from 2013 where a lady claims she is worried that he may well be the father of her child. She was advised by social services that her partner was a risk to children and cut off all contact, but strongly suspected in hindsight that he could be the father.

Other reports say he has a current girlfriend who is aware of his past, and that they are possibly planning marriage and child.

There is nothing online to suggest that he is reformed in any way, he has re-offended and appears to be a nasty bit of work to put it mildly. Descriptions of him by people as arrogant, obnoxious, womanising, plus him telling people what he did, all fit with him as a sociopath or psychopath, and he is not fit to be in society around decent people.

Denise Fergus has said all along they would reoffend, and we all now know that she was right about one of them at least. He needs putting away for a full life sentence now IMHO - his chance to ‘reform’ has been and gone.

Ahhh - just noticed the post says RT does not have a child not JV. Still though, I’m wondering how anyone could be so sure about that fact given that he has a new identity, or is supposed to have.

Other reports say he has a current girlfriend who is aware of his past, and that they are possibly planning marriage and child.

I think it’s pretty much impossible he would be allowed to care for a child after being caught twice with images of CSE.

You never know though, I think it’s clear from this thread some people would forgive him anything.

Augusta2012 - yes, there are other articles referencing those with legal knowledge saying that any child would be removed. I would certainly hope so anyway. No idea whether the same would apply to RT if he had or has any children. I hope it would though.

JV briefly dated a woman with a young child and authorities decided that 'that there was no absolute duty to consult partners' as he was seen as low risk. Imagine being that woman!

The Omand report is really informative reading if you want to know more and have the time to read it. Just Google it. Easy to find. There are obviously redacted parts to it but still tells you a lot about them.

I think it’s pretty much impossible he would be allowed to care for a child after being caught twice with images of CSE.

Or after murdering one for that matter

Schmoobarb, that isn’t necessarily true. Mary Bell murdered two children but she has been allowed to bring up her own child. I think if he had come out and not reoffended it’s likely he would have been allowed to parent his own children.