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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

James Bulger

567 replies

Monty27 · 03/01/2019 07:32

Hang your head in shame Vincent Lambre.
You low life creep.
Anyone?

OP posts:
Schmoobarb · 06/01/2019 00:26

as you can see I've already been re-educated by the highly righteous torn whose opinion I feel I'm meant to give a fuck about. I don't actually want to have a conversation with either of you, as you don't with me, so all good here from both sides!

Get back to the daily mail, there’s a love

Schmoobarb · 06/01/2019 00:27

No one ever, rightly, campaigned for Brady to be released

Brady didn’t want to be released.

User758172 · 06/01/2019 00:28

@Butchyrestingface

I think murderers and rapists should be hanged, absolutely. RT and JV are not entitled to live a full life having brutally ended another’s.

Butchyrestingface · 06/01/2019 00:30

I think murderers and rapists should be hanged, absolutely. RT and JV are not entitled to live a full life having brutally ended another’s.

Fair enough. I guess it's not clear to me what you mean by a "full life" - do you think that RT and JV should have received the death penalty or rather served a full life term?

User758172 · 06/01/2019 00:32

Do you think that RT and JV should have received the death penalty or rather served a full life term?

I don’t advocate the death penalty for children, no - but a full life term, yes. They should never have been freed.

TornFromTheInside · 06/01/2019 00:40

Strictly speaking they are not technically free. They are still sentenced, but granted parole on licence.

User758172 · 06/01/2019 00:44

Strictly speaking they are not technically free

But practically speaking, they are.

I utterly disagree with it, I’m afraid. They have no moral right to be free.

TornFromTheInside · 06/01/2019 00:46

But I ask again, Mary Bell is out and has at least one child of her own. Does anybody object to that?

Life is complex, and due to the nature of this murder (and that of Bell's victims) being so brutal, it's easy to see why people take a hard line.

But what if a 10 year old child pushed another into the road (this was actually something that the Bulger killers attempted) - would that be seen in the same light? It's still murder (assuming a jury believes the intention was to kill), but I suspect many people could manage to believe it was just one horrific bad choice which shouldn't result in the death penalty)...

where is the line drawn? if a 10 year old stabbed another 10 year old, would that been as horrific. If they stabbed a much younger child, is that worse? if they stabbed them once, is that better than 40 times?
If the killer had been bullied and murdered his bully... would you have more sympathy?

They all end in a needless death, they are all murder, but why do we seem to react differently between them?

Consolidatedyourloins · 06/01/2019 00:47

I don’t advocate the death penalty for children, no - but a full life term

But if you scroll up, you said they should be hanged, Ariadne. Hmm

User758172 · 06/01/2019 00:52

@Consolidatedyourloins

I misspoke there then. I mean as adults. Thompson hadn’t reoffended as far as we know. Fair enough, but I don’t think he should be free to have the opportunity.

Venables, on the other hand, should be hanged.

Consolidatedyourloins · 06/01/2019 01:00

Ariadne, so you're saying Venables should have been in the children's facility until the age of 18, and then he should have been hanged? But not Thompson?

SaturdayNext · 06/01/2019 01:21

Or I can shout 'be careful how we treat our kids, or we can turn them into monsters

Or you can treat injured parties with empathy and compassion- knowing that to do otherwise turns you into ..

Why is that an either/or. Helmet? Why can't you do both?

Augusta2012 · 06/01/2019 01:26

But I ask again, Mary Bell is out and has at least one child of her own. Does anybody object to that?

Torn, quite a way back in this thread I posted some info about Mary Bell, Robert Thompson and the two Edlington boys and the childhoods of all four.

All four of them were victims of extreme abuse from infancy and grew up only knowing a life where severe abuse and neglect were daily occurrences and not a tiny iota of love and care was present.

I also pointed out that all of those four, once removed from an abusive situation, ceased to offend.

I don’t think many people would try and argue that in cases like that the offence was linked to the crime. But JV was neatly bundled into the same category and his crimes were explained away with the same ‘bad childhood’ myths and of course removing him from the situation he lived in hasn’t made the blindest bit of difference to his offending because the situation he was in wasn’t all that bad and certainly wasn’t comparable to the extreme abuse the other four went through.

Yes, sometimes a pattern of abuse is the cause of a crime. But dismissing all serious youth offending as caused by the offenders own childhood regardless of whether or not there is much indication it was - well that does, and did in Venables case - mean that other causes of the offending will be overlooked and not treated/dealt with, which means they reoffend.

SaturdayNext · 06/01/2019 01:30

He may have put his own money into making it but of course he will benefit from it - it will get shown in the mainstream eventually and he will benefit from that name wise and advertising money wise I am sure. It’s not like he’s made it from an altruistic point of view.

It's incredibly unlikely ever to be shown the mainstream. It's been out for 8 months with very little publicity, and it's only a 30 minute film which, on the evidence of the trailers and two people here, is an extremely hard one to watch. Plus it would attract the sort of knee-jerk reactions we've seen here, so cinema owners would fight shy of it.

User758172 · 06/01/2019 01:38

@Consolidatedyourloins

No, of course not Confused

Based on what Venables has become and what he’s gone on to do since being released,I believe he should hang.

User758172 · 06/01/2019 01:38

Oops, went wrong there Blush

jessstan2 · 06/01/2019 01:45

One of the boys (murderer) was manipulated and sexually abused while in custody. So much for rehabilitation Not surprising he is totally confused now and actually asked to be re-incarcerated. That is scandalous in itself. Who taught him about porn? He learned it in prison, it wasn't readily available online like it is now.

Make what you want of that. I'm not proud of the young prison business, in fact I feel ashamed.

Consolidatedyourloins · 06/01/2019 02:03

Aridane, do you think anyone who looks at child abuse images should be hanged?

User758172 · 06/01/2019 02:11

@Consolidatedyourloins

Why are you interested in my opinion?

TornFromTheInside · 06/01/2019 02:36

Yes, sometimes a pattern of abuse is the cause of a crime. But dismissing all serious youth offending as caused by the offenders own childhood regardless of whether or not there is much indication it was - well that does, and did in Venables case - mean that other causes of the offending will be overlooked and not treated/dealt with, which means they reoffend.

That is a very tricky area... on the one hand, it stands to reason that any childhood is a factor in how someone turns out... even if it's not a particularly troubled environment. A childhood still shapes a child.
In the case of Venables, the fact that he's continued to do bad things doesn't necessarily mean his causes were something else, it may just be that his rehabilitation didn't work. Clearly it's not worked well, that's for sure. But seemingly Thompson's done 'ok' (we might be unaware of smaller issues... I'd be surprised if there were none at all), likewise Bell's managed to make a life of sorts - so I think that gives hope that sometimes a child can come out the other side.

With Venables there has to come a point where he's used up all his goodwill tokens. He's probably well past that point already, but that doesn't mean we can't look back and see causes. That said, we can never be 100% sure of any specific cause, just take a decent guess at certain factors that might have influenced a child who was already predisposed to certain behaviours.
We only need to look at two siblings to realise how different their personalities can be despite the same environment - but that doesn't mean their environment should affect them in the same way. It's all so complex to decipher.

Still, I would always like to hope we try to rehabilitate rather than just kill. But how many attempts can we make? and if we don't rehabilitate is that because we don't know how, or because they cannot be rehabilitated?

TornFromTheInside · 06/01/2019 02:46

One of them had his details compromised by someone on custody of him too. So institutions designed to rehabilitate them aren't perfect either.
I believe the majority working with these boys will have wanted to help them, but there will be some less compassionate.

I don't believe Denise Bulger wanted them to die. She was / is right to expect them to receive justice for their crimes, but what that justice is can be difficult for a grieving parent to determine. That's why we try to have a balanced judge making decisions (and this case was always going to be a troublesome one to judge on).

She is also right to question how good the assessment of Venables really was given that he's gone on to commit further offences. That said, the lives that both currently live cannot ever be 'normal' in the same way ours are. They cannot ever truly escape their past, or stop looking over their shoulders. It will affect every relationship for the rest of their lives. It will come at some cost to their mental health. To put it bluntly, they are going to be a little messed up for the rest of their lives, and it's a question of how well they can deal with that. For Venables, it may well be in everybody's best interests to remain in prison.

Augusta2012 · 06/01/2019 03:35

One of the boys (murderer) was manipulated and sexually abused while in custody. So much for rehabilitation Not surprising he is totally confused now and actually asked to be re-incarcerated. That is scandalous in itself. Who taught him about porn? He learned it in prison, it wasn't readily available online like it is now.

Make what you want of that. I'm not proud of the young prison business, in fact I feel ashamed.

Eh? What? Where did you get that from?

There’s no evidence either were sexually abused in the YOI or saw porn while in there. He wasn’t caught with that until he’d been free for about ten years so there’s no reason to think it had anything to do with the YOI.

TornFromTheInside · 06/01/2019 04:06

Venables had sex with a female office whilst in a secure unit. This is well documented. He was 17 at the time, and strangely the officer was not (as far as I know) prosecuted.

Had this occurred in a school it would be considered sexual abuse and probably ought to have been considered so in a secure unit.

TornFromTheInside · 06/01/2019 04:08

The unit was Red Bank close to Warrington.

OliviaStabler · 06/01/2019 07:51

There are plenty of kids with worse childhoods, who do not murder children. How much are we going to excuse their behaviour, John Venables continues to exhibit quite frankly disturbing and deeply worrying behaviour, accessing child abuse images for his own gratification.

Don't forget the child abuse manual he had as well, it's not just images he was looking at.