James Bulger

[Monty27]

Hang your head in shame Vincent Lambre.
You low life creep.
Anyone?

It seems odd to me that Martin Clunes, who has a young daughter himself, is starring in a drama about Milly Dowler this weekit’s far too recent , and far too raw for the families of these young women to deal widramatised horrific events like this. It’s crass, thoughtless and cruel imo, as is this drama about James.

Why is this film any different than the fairly recent documentary? Were people disgusted about that?

On the money and reputation for the director i know for a fact, because I have heard from people who work on film competitions and festivals that a lot of them pulled back from showing this film even though they thought it was exceptional and powerfully made, because they were afraid of just the sort of thoughtless backlash shown in this thread. The Winchester Film Festival linked to earlier in this thread was the first and I think (though I might be mistaken) still the only festival in the UK to show the film. For most of the last 8 months nobody knew a thing about it.

Rather than be the making of him I have no doubt he was well aware that firstly short films don't make money and rarely go mainstream and secondly this was a topic that would be a hard sell. Short filmmakers make films because they care passionately about the subject and the creation of that film. Money and prestige is just not something you get from it. He's only getting known now because of the Oscar nominations and that was a huge surprise to everyone.

Viola, you are missing the point.

The point isn't that they were angels - by the time they'd committed their crime they had become monsters - but they became so in just 10 years.
What makes such children? what are the odds of two of them being equal monsters, or did they combine and encourage each other to become worse than they ever could have been alone?

They were 10. Anybody who has a child of that age will know how incredulous it is to imagine them as 100% evil.

Mary Bell committed multiple murders as a child. She has since gone one to have a child and live some semblance of a meaningful life.
Putting a child to death might feel like closure of some sort, but it feels more like carte blanche denial that suits society.

I've recently had the acquaintance of two Syrian children who have witnessed their families being executed in front of them. The elder of the two children is now becoming aggressive. If he were to go on and kill, would hanging him be the solution too? His past is not an excuse, but it sure as hell is a factor. These two kids (the Syrians) are seriously damaged.
I have no doubt that Thompson and Venables were damaged too. It doesn't excuse them, but they didn't just happen, they were made.

Thoughtless backlash?

Okay.

That's awful Torn. I agree with you completely (again).

Thoughtless backlash?

Okay.

Well, I'm glad we agree. While there are fair objections to be made and I understand why some may not want to watch the film (as I day I declined the opportunity to watch it myself), stating that the director is just out to make money off the back of murders doesn't seem very thought out at all if you know anything about film making.

In the case of Jamie, l would absolutely advocated the death penalty, that wasn't an unintentional death from misadventure, it was torture and horrific

Get a fucking grip of yourself. You can’t execute 10 year olds in a civilised society, no matter what they’ve done!

And his name was James.

Well it’s one way for the director to court publicity isn’t, and it’s working for him.
Some people will do anything for a bit of fame.

Sorry there is no need for this film.
We as the public don't need to humanise those people, they terrorised a 2 year old, showed no mercy.
The only people who need insight into this case are ones like my 18 Ds studying criminology or his friends doing law. they get this at university. I don't need to know why, only did they 100% do the crime.
No one has ever, EVER, said they didn't.

I am working class, from Hull area, all my family comes from the same sort of background as the Bulger's, no one I know believes true justice was served on those two.
I don't believe in the death penalty, Stefan Kiszko anyone, but we replaced it with life sentences, not 8 cushy years of youth custody and then a free reign to live as you like.
I notice Baroness Butler Slosh give them new identities, she of course couldn't chair the child abuse enquiry as she is deem to close to people who covered up acts.

Britain cares to much about offenders and how to deal with their feelings, god when the trial happened the Bulger's could not even give a victims statement to the court or judge.

Sorry JV and RT should never see freedom, ever.
Christ people go to jail for longer for defrauding OAP's out of their life savings.
Sums up British justice, it cares more about money and offenders, then a 2 year brutally tortured and killed and left to cut in half by a train. Sick.

torn in all this debate that's the biggest thing you took? Ok- can everyone please alter my above post in your head to read 'in the case of James'.
If you'd read the full thread, you'd know very well it's not the biggest thing I took from it, so don't flatter yourself that your post warrants such a high accolade.

My logic is that I'm unlikely to be able to hold much a reasoned conversation with someone who'd be happy to execute two ten year old children, but I might be able to at least get you to get the name of the victim right.

I have no sympathy for them.

Quite. I'm surprised that people who become so outraged by this continue to call James Bulger, "Jamie". I saw Denise Bulger on TV when the last documentary was made about him and she said, "They can't even get his name right".

schmooo as you can see I've already been re-educated by the highly righteous torn whose opinion I feel I'm meant to give a fuck about. I don't actually want to have a conversation with either of you, as you don't with me, so all good here from both sides!

We as the public don't need to humanise those people, they terrorised a 2 year old, showed no mercy.
The only people who need insight into this case are ones like my 18 Ds studying criminology or his friends doing law. they get this at university. I don't need to know why, only did they 100% do the crime.
No one has ever, EVER, said they didn't.

You're advocating that the public don't need to understand whilst in the same breath you're happy to advocate entire life sentences to children?

We all need to understand better, and if one day, we discover that some kids really are born to be evil so be it. But right now, we don't know. Society has a huge influence on children - and that's all of us. We can't just wash our hands of kids like this and pretend society plays no part.
We have kids growing up in households where dad is watching porn in front of them, where mum is drinking a bottle of gin a day, where dad is hitting all of them. And when some of those kids end up being messed up, we put it all on them, and throw away the key?
Yes, they committed awful crimes and have to be punished. How we punish them is a matter of debate, but regardless of this film, the public should always want to understand more and come to realise the way we treat and care for children matters. Can't you see that?

If we never ask why, we will stop caring why, and if we stop caring why, we will just stop caring.

What do people think of Mary Bell?
Should she still be in prison?

Well it’s one way for the director to court publicity isn’t, and it’s working for him.
Some people will do anything for a bit of fame.

This is short film that has been out for months and months with absolutely no publicity. It's only the Oscar nomination that has got anyone talking about it and that was completely unexpected. Usually films nominated for Oscars will have been shown a lot at various festivals and won plenty of smaller awards first. This film has been shown at only one UK festival that I know of. Hardly a planned publicity stunt.

Quite. I'm surprised that people who become so outraged by this continue to call James Bulger, "Jamie". I saw Denise Bulger on TV when the last documentary was made about him and she said, "They can't even get his name right'

Agreed. It's interesting that it's the thoughtful, reasonable posters pointing this out to the bloodthirsty ones. What does the spelling of a name matter in their quest for righteousness.

Don't get why people keep bringing James's family into it. They were incidental to the crime, not directly involved, and it could have happened to any family. It wouldn't make an interesting story to ask about the effect on them (it would be very intrusive to them also). You wouldn't make a film about the relatives of someone who died in a car crash either. It doesn't imply a lack of respect or dehumanisation of the family to focus on the perpetrators.

Tornfromthewildside
I have no degree, less then 5 O levels, my knowledge of law is basic, but I as most WC class kids grow up with strong sense of what was right and wrong.
The law in the 1960's outlawed the death penalty, and replaced it with life sentence's for murder, not 8 years, then you walk free.
JV and RT, committed torture and murder and allowed a child to be cut in two by a train, they didn't know if he was dead when they left, even the police feared James was alive when the train hit, thank God( whoever) he wasn't.
The court case refused to air all evidence, as most was deemed too gruesome for James family to hear, even the defence team agreed.

I am sorry, there is way people can be saved from that level of wrong doing. No one ever, rightly, campaigned for Brady to be released, the ex Law Lord who campaigned for Hindley to be release, was rightly seen as a foolish old softie. No-one is stood outside the home office campaigning for Huntley to be released, rightly, and he didn't torture his victims.
They showed no mercy, I have seen, parts of their interviews, I feel absolutely nothing for either JV or RT, no pity, no sympathy nothing, but shear revulsion of what they did, I don't need to feel sympathy, I want people like that away from my family.
Because it isn't MC England or a house next to out of touch, privately educated do good law lords, these 2 (god knows who they are now)get to live in. Its communities like mine where they dumped into.

Thanks to austerity, the police, probation and support services are cut to the bone, though is keeping my family safe from them, they say JV was grooming single mums with babies online for nearly 12 months, and was only caught by accident, that's one who's been recalled at least twice, if RT is seen as safe, what is if any watching is done on him.

I want justice for victims, not criminals. Simple.

What do people think of Mary Bell?
Should she still be in prison?

Yes. And RT and JV as well. They should never have been allowed free. Still very much in favour of the death penalty though.

@2BoysandaCairn

There is really no need to post the gruesome details here. Everyone knows what happened. That's spectacularly bad taste.

Yes. And RT and JV as well. They should never have been allowed free. Still very much in favour of the death penalty though.

The death penalty in the cases above or just generally?

Don't get why people keep bringing James's family into it. They were incidental to the crime, not directly involved, and it could have happened to any family. It wouldn't make an interesting story to ask about the effect on them (it would be very intrusive to them also). You wouldn't make a film about the relatives of someone who died in a car crash either. It doesn't imply a lack of respect or dehumanisation of the family to focus on the perpetrators.

Jesus fucking Christ. Can you hear yourself? Are you actually capable of understanding the words you are typing.

Of course they weren’t ‘incidental’ to the crime. Maybe it could have happened to anybody but it didn’t.

I find it extremely difficult to understand why people who come out with this kind of stuff genuinely believe that they are on the nice, good and caring side.

Do you seriously think that describing them as ‘incidental’ and ‘not directly involved’ doesn’t dehumanise them and minimise their suffering?

Why don’t you go around to the houses of a few relatives of murder victims and explain to them that they shouldn’t feel upset, or feel any ownership or interest in how the slaughtering of their child is shown on TV and explain to them that it’s just not what this particular production finds ‘interesting’.

And likening it to the victim of a car crash and their family?

Are you completely devoid of empathy?

An awful lot of what has been said about JV and RT on this thread is just faux intellectual posturing designed to make it what is being said more palatable because actually most of it makes the speakers look like callous bloody bastards when looked at in the cold light of day.

The arguments for and against Venables and Thompson’s release when it occurred have been oft rehashed however even Mrs Fergus accepted that for them to have remained in prison “for life” was unrealistic.