Ian Huntley ! This is wrong...

[HJWT]

I just don't have words

Are 'people like us' [people aware of biology?] not allowed in AIBU then?

Not very inclusive.

Why isn’t a journalist speaking to eomrn in prison and ex inmates about their experiences with TW in prison?

Well you people seem increasingly to be wandering into AIBU appealing for insight as to why people find your attitudes so repellent, I can't work out if it's a takeover bid or a cry for help.

It's neither. Terribly sorry "us people" won't stay corralled in FWR, given that we have the right to post whatever we want, where we want. And are in no way afraid of challenging arguments. Unlike some.

The rules are clear, any man wanting to be recognised as a woman, needs to have lived as a woman for 5-10 years already (sorry I forgot the exact time period), but no he cannot suddenly just turn into a woman and allowed into a woman's prison.... This is Daily Mail Rubbish!

Everything you state in your post is incorrect.

Also Fox the main threads you seem to be popping up on are the ones discussing prisons. Why is that, since we're all examining our motives?

Unfortunately jophie that’s incorrect. I think that’s what most of the public think - it’s certainly the sort of vague idea I had about it before I started looking into it (ie that the system was fair and robust.)

But no, you don’t need a certificate. The system is easy to game (as a transwoman on this thread points out above.) at the moment it’s done case by case but they seem to wave anyone through - Karen white was known to have used the ‘identifying as a woman’ to enter a locked women’s ward and rape a woman but they still approved the application.

And worse, in the pipeline is a proposal to bring in ‘self ID.’ That means that any man will be able to identify as a woman with no checks at all.

Many places act like it’s the law already. Phillip/pips bunce at credit Suisse for example chooses what they feenlike being day to day.

If the self ID thing goes through, it will make the equality act impossible to enforce. And that will make all women’s spaces non existent. Everything will be mixed sex. Hospital wards (already are) changing rooms, prisons, refuges, everything.

And yes, it does sound bonkers doesn’t it? But that’s what’s happening.

The rules are clear, any man wanting to be recognised as a woman, needs to have lived as a woman for 5-10 years already (sorry I forgot the exact time period)

What does this mean for males convicted of a crime?
Can a male 'live as a woman'?
If the male prisoner has committed male-pattern crimes?

For male prisoners 'living as a woman' means changing their name, insisting they are referred to as she/her. Some may request women's underwear, clothing, make up, hair straighteners, wigs etc.

Policies will require that a male's 'gender identity' is respected.

For those serving long sentences, they of course also have a lot of time.

Francis Crook executive director of the Howard League for Penal Reform "said that she was worried that ‘some men with a history of extreme violence and sexual violence against women have found a new way of exercising aggression towards women’.

‘These men are not transitioning because they like women and want to be a woman, but in order to exert a new kind of control and dominance over women, a sort of infiltration."

they might of course also gain a 'new kind of control over the courts, prison authorities, staff, MoJ etc

source:
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5798945/Trans-women-convicted-men-attack-vulnerable-inmates.html

Why isn’t a journalist speaking to eomrn in prison and ex inmates about their experiences with TW in prison?

Its a really good question.

There are some quotes within articles, also anonymous comments from prison officers.

When K. White was found guilty of sexually assaulting female prisoners. A relative of one of the ther prisoners phoned into a radio program and described how distressing it had also been for women to have to share communal showers with White.

see also: February 2018, Alex Stewart in Scotland:

'Row as transgender prisoner living as woman wins jail's Miss Fitness competition by 'country mile'
Murderer Alex Stewart – previously Alan Baker – beat other contestants in the multi-discipline tournament in the female section of HM Prison Greenock, Scotland'
(extract)
"A transgender woman has caused outrage among female prisoners after winning a jail's 'Miss Fitness' competition by a "country mile".

Murderer Alex Stewart – previously Alan Baker – beat other contestants in the multi-discipline fitness tournament at HM Prison Greenock, Scotland, the Daily Record reports.

While living as a man, Stewart killed dad-of-two John Weir, 36, after inviting him to his home.

The two men had met just hours earlier on a gay dating site. He stabbed John at least 16 times.

Stewart has not had gender reassignment surgery but is living life as a woman in the female section of the jail.

The 29-year-old, who has repeatedly complained about her treatment behind bars, triumphed in disciplines including rowing, weights, sit-ups and press-ups.

A source said: “The rest of them shouldn’t have bothered even entering.

“It was surreal. Everybody knew it wasn’t very fair, but nobody was allowed to say it.

“The women inmates have had to accept that Stewart is being allowed to live as a woman, despite not having had surgery.

“That means she is in the showers at the same time as other inmates, which some have found quite awkard.

“She has the right to determine her own gender.

“That is fine because the vast majority of the women believe in inclusiveness and equality.

“She trained hard and won the event by some distance. A country mile.”

“Everybody knew she was training hard for the event,” the source continued. “She did not enter last year and maybe this is a sign of her new confidence.

“She’s actually a nice girl. A bit of a drama queen, but nice.

“But other girls felt ashamed and cheated. They felt that they had no chance right from the start.

“But that didn’t bother Stewart. She just accepted the title and the trophy and seemed very pleased with herself.

“She had trained for a few weeks and as far as she is concerned it all came good." (continues)

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/outrage-transgender-prisoner-living-woman-12022675

MAy 2018:

'Transgender killers split up by prison chiefs after groping antics at high security jail'
(extract)
"Two transgender murderers have had to be separated after falling for each other in a top security jail – leaving them “devastated”.

Evil Sophie Eastwood and twisted Alex Stewart formed a relationship in Greenock Prison which involved so much public intimacy that other cons complained.

Now Eastwood – previously dubbed “Hannibal Lecter Jnr” over the chilling intimidation of a female guard – has been moved to Polmont, near Falkirk, after a probe by prison bosses.

Despite their new female identities neither have had surgery, and fellow inmates complained that they felt intimidated around the pair because of their behaviour.

A source said: “It got beyond the joke. No one has a problem with transgender people. But they do have a problem when they suspect that the transgender identities are being used as a way of getting a cushier time in prison. It totally undermines real transgender prisoners.”

Eastwood, 32, was caged for a driving offence in 2004.

But while inside Dumfries Young Offenders Institution she – as a man called Daniel Eastwood – strangled cell-mate Paul Algie, 22, with a pair of shoelaces.

Stewart, 29, as Alan Baker, murdered dad-of-two John Weir, 36, after inviting him to his home.

The men had met just hours earlier on a dating site. He stabbed John at least 16 times.

Despite both Eastwood and Stewart living as women in the female section of Greenock Prison neither has had gender reassignment surgery.

The source said: “Some of the lassies were getting more and more uncomfortable and complained.

“Alex Stewart has been here for some time but Sophie Eastwood is a recent arrival.

“Right away they seemed to click and formed a relationship. All well and good.

“But more and more their intimate behaviour was seen in public areas.

“To put it in a nutshell, neither was shy at letting things all hang out.

“And they were not shy at touching and groping in front of the other prisioners.

“You can be as tolerant as you like but there comes a time when it is too much.

“Many of the lassies think they are at it.

“It is not a good thing to say about transgender people.

“But they seem to be milking the system for a cushier time of it.

“For genuine transgender prisoners in the system this is totally undermining.

“Physically they are still men but they are dressed as women. A lot of prisoners just don’t get it.

“Alex has always said that her preference is men. But she did say she would consider going with a woman and it looks like Eastwood has fitted the bill.

“Two weekends ago they were outdoors and things came to a head. They were openly intimate in front of others.” (continues)

Eastwood has had several stays in hospital while in prison for “eating” razor blades.

She was dubbed “Hannibal Lecter Jnr” after an escort officer, 22, quit her job because of intimidation when he was still a man.

He told her facts about her private life while escorting him to hospital.

Eastwood, from England, told the guard her home address, model of car she drove and her father’s occupation." (continues)

www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/transgender-killers-kept-apart-after-12493525

Well you people seem increasingly to be wandering into AIBU appealing for insight as to why people find your attitudes so repellent, I can't work out if it's a takeover bid or a cry for help

it's not a takeover bid Fox

read the thread. we're the majority. most people are fully aware that humans can't change sex

GC women need to stop being so apologetic for holding a mainstream, logical view

From a FWR thread discussing article above,, OP, TerfinUSA wrote:

"Yes it's Sophie formerly Daniel Eastwood who terrified a female guard into quitting her job www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/female-prison-guard-quits-after-9379668

(NB Eastwood, referred to here as Hannibal (Hannah-belle, shurely: ed) Lecter Jr is not to be confused with Tiffany Scott formerly Andrew Burns www.alloaadvertiser.com/news/15507716.Shirtless_prisoner_hurls_abuse_at_sheriff_as_she_is_jailed/)

Sophie's charming campaign of terror earned her a move from Shotts prison to the female wing at Greenock Prison, where she met her soul mate Alex Stewart (formerly murderer Alan Baker) the recently crowned 'Miss Fitness'

Alex's tireless advocacy for transgender rights brought these two together www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3237471-Transgender-prisoners-in-Scotland-progress-report"

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3242178-Transgender-killers-split-up-by-prison-chiefs

God R0wantrees that makes for very sobering reading.

Two convicted murderers getting their penises out and fondling each other in front of women who can't escape. I've said this before - I actually run out of words.

Laws and policies allowing this are, quite simply, depraved.

People (on this very thread) who think women drawing attention to it are wrong, are part the problem.

And it's certainly noticeable that very many people don't think it's happening. Because it's so disgusting, people think it can't possibly be true.

And, again, I'm struck by how the attitude to the women is well they need to put up with it. It's not that bad. Who cares. Women who have already been sexually assaulted ffs.

And anyone who refused to complete the self ID consultation, on the basis that some of the women completing it might have different views to you about something that is not self ID, are also part of the bloody problem and should be ashamed.

And certain posters really think it's us who are the problem?

Women and parents need to be aware that Scotland has devolved powers over many of the areas that are affected by trans rights.

Trans-rights activists will see/ use Scotland as an examplar of more 'progressive policies' than England, Wales and Northern Ireland.

There seems to have been a complete absence of impact studies that such 'progressive policies' would have on girls and women (human females)

Previously linked Westminster briefing paper:
In Scotland, 2014 policy guidelines state that the social gender in which the prisoner is living should be fully respected, regardless of whether or not they have a GRC.

see also Schools (june 2018):
"THE rights of Scottish schoolgirls are being undermined by rules allowing pupils to adopt a different gender and share changing rooms, it has been claimed, as it emerged schools are unprepared for the controversial overhaul.

A series of Freedom of Information (FoI) requests have revealed that councils have widely backed guidelines produced by organisations campaigning for the rights of transgender people but have not considered how the new approach will affect children – particularly girls.

The new guidelines tell teachers that if a transgender pupil wishes to share a changing room with "other young people who share their gender identity," they should be allowed to do so.

"There is no reason for parents or carers of the other pupils to be informed," it adds.

The guidelines say young people should be able to compete in the sports events for the gender they identify with, and says if other pupils are uncomfortable using changing rooms or toilets with transgender pupils, they should use other facilities or wait until the transgender pupil is done.

However none of the councils involved, nor the children’s commissioner, nor Education Scotland have carried out an equality impact assessment to ensure the rights and wellbeing of other pupils are unaffected. This means the impact on other students has not been taken into account." (continues)
www.heraldscotland.com/news/16311379.schools-forget-girls-in-rush-to-adopt-pro-trans-guidance-campaigners-claim-as-christian-group-threatens-legal-action/

(March 2018) Fairer representation on public boards & the definition of female as well as woman Fairplay for Women report:

"Last year while we were all looking the other way and distracted by the UK government’s proposals to reform the Gender Recognition Act the word woman was stolen from us. It was sneakily done by the Scottish parliament and hidden behind a smoke screen. That smoke screen was The Gender Representation on Public Boards Bill.

The Bill introduced the ‘gender representation objective’ – a target that women should make up 50% of non-executive board membership.

The purpose of this bill was admirable. It was to help women overcome the institutional sexism we suffer due to our sex. Positive action to redress the imbalances that have arisen from centuries of historical disadvantage. It was to acknowledge the reality that institutionalised inequality and sexist attitudes stop most women from reaching their full potential in public life. Financial barriers, income inequality, the gender pay gap, sexist attitudes, gender stereotyping, women’s disproportionate share of caring responsibilities, the undervaluing of women’s paid work, and media portrayals of women, to name but a few influences, all play a role in the sexism that prevents a fair number of women being involved in public life.

But in a cruel twist of irony it was also to be the perfect trojan horse to steal the very meaning of the words woman and female from us.

It all started early last year. The Scottish Government consulted on the draft bill between 5 January 2017 and 13 March 2017. Quietly and without fanfare. Non existent media coverage. No one was that bothered. Only 101 responses to the consultation, 66 from groups or organisation and 35 from individuals. Compare this to the >15000 responses received for the Scottish consultation for reform of the Gender Recognition Act this year. This one slipped by unnoticed.

The draft bill was transgender inclusive and included this:

The “gender representation objective” for a public board is that it has—

(a) 50% of non-executive members who are female or who identify as female, and

(b) 50% of non-executive members who are male or who identify as male.

But this still wasn’t enough for the transgender lobby.

The Scottish Trans Alliance wanted to remove the phrase ‘who are female’ and ‘who are male’, so as not to create a legal difference between those ‘who are’ and those ‘who identify as’ male or female. They got their way. They always do."
fairplayforwomen.com/scottish_stole_woman/

The rules are clear, any man wanting to be recognised as a woman, needs to have lived as a woman for 5-10 years already (sorry I forgot the exact time period), but no he cannot suddenly just turn into a woman and allowed into a woman's prison.... This is Daily Mail Rubbish!

Nope. Negative.

Can I also take this opportunity to say thank you to R0wantrees for taking the time to collect, reference and post the (quite shocking at times) evidence on this issue, throughout the boards.

womenarehuman.com/man-hides-past-as-child-rapist-by-becoming-transgender-and-changing-name-allison-nee-dennis-woolbert/

This person managed to hide the fact he was a child rapist for a long time by changing his name and identifying as a woman.

Some insight into how trans-rights activists/lobbyists have effected change in Scotland.

Report from recent TRA conference, 'We're Still Here' organised by Jane Fae, keynote speaker Dawn Butler by TheHarpySings who explained:

"First off, I’m a regular poster, have been here for years under various usernames, it I’m posting here on a name change as I don’t want this traced to me.

On 8th September there was a conference held in London a Bloomsbury Baptist Church which was called We’re Still Here, which featured a variety of panels and workshops and was attended by many prominent people in the pro-GRA reform camp.

I decided to attend to find out what was being said as it was clear that they did not want anyone to attend that wasn’t a TRA or an ally.

What follows are my notes from the day

(extract)
"GETTING THE GRA WE WANT

This was a workshop with 3 experts sitting with groups and talking through activism. They were:

Helen Belcher (Lib Dems, Trans Media Watch)
James Morton (Scottish Transgender Alliance)
Alex Moore (GenderJam). Moore is from N Ireland.

James Morton gave some insight into tactics the TRAs will probably start using in England and Wales as they were successful in Scotland.

He said the TRAs need to build allies in mainstream women and children’s organisations so it looks like they care about them.

He also said what worked in Scotland's was a “constructive, friendly, innocent” tone when debating or in dialogue with the GC side. To be mindful about who is watching- essentially like what we do with the lurkers on the FWR board. To make the TRAs look like the reasonable side.

James also said that in dialect with elected officials, to clarify that the trans side aren’t silencing anyone but want to clarify the misconceptions being bandied around by GC feminists.

The Scottish GRA changes will probably be put forward in the 2019-2020 parliamentary year.

Belcher has been meeting with MPs and members of the House of Lords. Most of them don’t really understand the GRA and don’t have much time to think about it thanks to the Brexit FUBAR. “Education” of law makers is needed and that’s what Belcher is doing.

Apparently the TRAs lack the infrastructure they had in the 1990s and early 2000s so they need to think carefully and coordinate.

Belcher said to re-iterate to MPs that the EA2010 is not being affected and no one is losing any rights (wtf).

Apparently in terms of political support, the Tories are split about 50/50, Labour, Lib Dem's and SNP are all onside. The Greens were NOT mentioned.

The big fear on the TRA side is that this Government won’t survive long enough to get this through- again because Brexit.

According to Alex Moore, Arlene Foster of the DUP went to a Pink News event and didn’t seem to know much about this. In NI no one really cares about the trans issues because everyone is focused on same sex marriage and abortion.

Alex then moaned about the Together for Yes campaign’s transmisogyny and that the campaign completely erased the experiences of trans and NB people who need abortions. Alex would like a legal change of gender to be free of charge and as easy as changing your name.

Helen Belcher was annoyed at GC feminists using “emotive arguments” regards rape.

HB said that the pile ons pro self-ID MPs get from the GC side if they say something supportive of the trans side are not helping the GC cause. Maria Miller told Belcher that MPs got loads of abuse in the run up to marriage equality and that abusive messages, tweets from GC feminists will only harden MPs against the GC side.

HB also said something snide about “mouthy” female Labour MPs who speak before thinking on Twitter- especially on a Friday or Saturday night after they’ve had a few drinks.

Apparently the TRAs have civil service support and that the Stonewall report and Gov survey are strong bits of evidence they have which is helping them win arguments.

They are saying there is no risk to reforming the GRA and are asking MPs “what is the risk?”

In the group I was in they also talked about how changing your gender multiple times should be allowed and shouldn’t be seen as “bad intentions”.

James Morton talked about how they can get rid of “gender” markers on things like IT systems and places where it isn’t relevant- apparently GDPR might be able to help them here.

JM’s campaigning tips were to gain trust in the local community- and to approach moderate feminists, “correct misconceptions and forgive any ignorance they may have displayed”. They want to gain trust and make themselves likeable.

Apparently small acts like helping to campaign about period poverty or retweeting the local branch of Women’s Aid will make a difference and result in some reciprocation. They want to make it look like they care about Women's issues so they don’t appear threatening"

full report here:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3398737-We-re-Still-Here-Conference-8th-September-A-report-from-the-inside

I for one am glad Huntley has decided to do this.
I hope it will bring awareness to the vast majority of people who seem clueless or don't seem to care about the safeguarding of women and girls.

And as for the Daily Mail sniping, yes it can be full of utter tripe and shite, but it really does seem (unfortunately) to be the only paper with the balls to point out glaringly obvious issues with the GRA.
They've gone up in my estimation.

Avegemitesandwich thank you, there is so much information out there as well as misinformation.
I believe people should have access to sourced articles so that if they wish, they can make informed decisions. I also remember how long it took me to read enough to have a clearer picture.
Most people (especially women!) don't have as much time available, I learned so much from women on FWR, I am happy to do what I can now.

There's a few threads in particular which collate a lot of relevent information:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3335962-Frequently-Asked-Questions-FAQs-I-have-noticed-here

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3348290-It-will-never-happen-resource-thread

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3297184-Your-comments-for-Penny-Mordaunt

This thread evolved from the original one posted by Justine Roberts at the beginning of the Govt. Consultation.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/3297067-Mumsnet-moderation-response-to-yesterdays-feedback

As its in another place, 'Talk', there is a risk it gets lost.

There are many important comments, posts and concerns of MN members on the thread including additional questions and comments for Penny Mordant.

The thread which Justine is referring to in her comment & links to:
July 3rd 2018, OP Pratchet wrote:
"A woman is an adult female human
Of the sex whose reproductive role is to gestate and bear young.

Let's just say this while we still can. Because it's true, and however many people try to make us lie about it, or remain silent, it will always be true.

In times of universal deceit, speaking the truth is a revolutionary act.

It hurts MY feelings to see 'transwomen are women'. It damages MY mental health to see that, it makes ME feel erased and MY identity feel destroyed. I have a voice and I deserve that voice. WE deserve it."
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3295603-A-woman-is-an-adult-female-human

Failings/failures in child protection and safeguarding frameworks:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a3301266-Safeguarding-girls-and-protecting-women-post-Jimmy-Saville-metoo

Is that the Jane Fae who has been an advocate for extreme porn? And who wanted younger actors to be allowed to make it? Was Jane Fae the one who advised school children to ‘get tits early and suck dick?’ Or was that someone else?

The Jane Fae who is now advising various child centred organisations like girl guides in safeguarding?

Nothing to see here folks. All totes above board.

fox do you think prisons should be mixed sex?

Bowlofbabelfish Generally no, but I don't think "trans woman" and "man" are interchangeable terms either, so I don't necessarily go XY = male sex = man = men's prison. IMO trans people by definition don't fit neatly into these boxes so I'd assess case by case with a high degree of scepticism.

read the thread. we're the majority. most people are fully aware that humans can't change sex
This really isn't the slam dunk of a point you seem to think it is.

Also Fox the main threads you seem to be popping up on are the ones discussing prisons. Why is that, since we're all examining our motives?

I count two…

Was Jane Fae the one who advised school children to ‘get tits early and suck dick?’ Or was that someone else?

It was someone else, yeah.

It was Shon Faye

There are also many videos of importatant speeches and vlogs:
eg
Woman's Place UK
www.youtube.com/channel/UCzFqsUqDzyXEQMJVy42NwUw/videos

Fairplay for Women
www.youtube.com/channel/UCi6SWP9I1MJzeHbnyg-2Zrg/videos

LAWS (Let A Woman Speak)
www.youtube.com/channel/UCqbErUF4KPXcOvgwLpL-dIQ/videos

Magdelen Berns
www.youtube.com/channel/UCvTTakI97sQ4SkMnsH8r0qQ/videos

Peach Yoghurt
www.youtube.com/user/Perzikyoghurt/videos

Lisa Muggeridge:
www.youtube.com/channel/UC9c2nFwyCdfgBG8BhFys3-A/videos

Venice Allen
www.youtube.com/channel/UCdOAL2_mpBKEW4YO4YAPNIA/videos

Posie Parker
www.youtube.com/user/MrCrushingBlow/videos

Was it someone else? Ok. A memorable quote, but of course if I’ve attributed it wrongly, then mea culpa.

Shon Fae? (Faye?) was that the person who advised children to ‘get tits early and suck dick?) or was it someone else? I don’t want to attribute it wrongly of course.

Too many Fayes...

Jane simply an advocate for extreme porn then (extreme as in permanent damage to body, not ‘a bit kinky’ for anyone reading this. Genuinely extreme stuff.)

Jane also said they had advised girl guides on safeguarding, which is nice to hear isn’t it?

Here’s another advisor on transgender prison transfer policy: Gordon pike. Who was later convicted for child sex offences.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/sex-offender-gordon-pike-helped-set-prison-trans-rules-q8n3lnksv

One must start to wonder what sort of due diligence is being done when it comes to who is advising on these policies...