Ian Huntley ! This is wrong...

[HJWT]

I just don't have words

I wonder if Huntley has had the opportunity to read this guide written by a male prisoner who identifies as a woman but has not been able to gain transfer (yet?) to female prison estate due their risk category?

Transgender Behind Prison Walls Paperback (2017)
by Sarah Jane Baker

"After explaining ‘What is transgender?’ this first book on transgender in a prison setting looks at the entire HM Prison Service regime for such people. Ranging from hard information about rules and regulations, the transition process and how to access it to practical suggestions about clothing, wigs and hairpieces, make-up and coming out, the book also deals with such matters as change of name, gender identity clinics, hormones, medication and use of prison showers and toilets. Covering the entire transition process the book contains contributions from a number of transgender prisoners as well as extracts from reports showing how those in transition still tend to attract a negative portrayal. Also included are the special security implications of related procedures and descriptions of the attitudes to transgender inmates of other prisoners and staff. It contains a number of appendices dealing with the latest 2016 HM Prison Service Instruction on transgender prisoners and a range of support mechanisms including a list of specialists in the field and other useful reference sources and contacts.
It also contains Sarah Jane Baker’s account of her own male-to-female transition and the difficulties she has faced behind bars. The first book of its kind, written by a transgender life-sentence prisoner. Includes key extracts from official publications. With a graphic account of the author’s own transition journey. Contains practical information and tips."

www.amazon.co.uk/Transgender-Behind-Prison-Walls-Sarah/dp/1909976458?tag=mumsnetforum-21

the prisoner also tweets... which surprised me.
twitter.com/lifersarah?lang=en

If you mean that men who identify as women require different services/facilities to men who don't identify as women, then say so. It's not a difficult concept. Anyone can grasp it.

And most people would support it. Most people would understand that transwomen have a unique experience and may not be best served by traditional male services.

But they dont get to use the women’s.

Just dispose of language as a construct that uses defined words in order to convey meaning, and anything's possible

I suppose that would mean only scientists and mathematicians, who can convey objective meaning through symbols, numbers and diagrams would be able to express themselves. (Artists and musicians could still create things with 'meaning' but the meaning is subjective).

Sarah Jane Baker is a violent criminal who tortured their step mother's brother and attempted to murder someone in prison.

They have been unable to convince the gender clinic to give them a diagnosis of gender dysphoria. Leading one to assume they are a late transitioner, either because they have a fetish, or they are a chancer.

They are determined to be transferred.

I don't necessarily go XY = male sex = man = men's prison.

What the what now?

What do you go necessarily?

I am guessing a rational that explains your thinking NonExistentFox is not going to be forthcoming...non-existent-rational perhaps?

Sarah Jane Baker is a violent criminal who tortured their step mother's brother and attempted to murder someone in prison.
They have been unable to convince the gender clinic to give them a diagnosis of gender dysphoria. Leading one to assume they are a late transitioner, either because they have a fetish, or they are a chancer.

The reasons for imprisonment were not easy to find.

They are relevent when considering Baker's introductory passage in his book 'Transgender Behind Prison Walls' (extracts from open access on Amazon page)

Here you go Ro

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2383992/Violent-inmate-Alan-Baker-given-10-000-sex-change-NHS.html

Baker, originally from Croydon, South London, was initially locked up for kidnapping and torturing his step-mother’s brother.

But after trying to kill an alleged child rapist behind bars in 1998 he is now serving an indeterminate sentence.

I approached a prison doctor who referred me to a prison psychiatrist, who then referred me to the charity Charing Cross Identity Clinic in London. Unfortunately, the clinicians refused to make a diagnosis of gender dysphoria.

www.napomagazine.org.uk/2018/04/23/transitioning-behind-bars/

Datun Thanks.

I am confused though as the 2013 article says Baker had a 'sex change operation' by the NHS.

How on earth would this be ethical / possible without a diagnosis of gender dysphoria?

^I increasingly believe that doctors should stop describing operations as 'sex-change', humans can't change sex'

IMO trans people by definition don't fit neatly into these boxes

Biological sex is reality, not an identity category.

Note at the end of the article is the likely explanation as to why Baker remains in male estate: due to the risk category.

Sarah Jane Baker made her transition in 2011 and has spent over 29 years in prison after receiving a discretionary life sentence.

Baker would have been refused transfer to female estate after 2011 as it does not have facilities to house certain high risk prisoners.
(because male and female offender patterns are very different)

Are there no criminologists writing about the group of violent, predatory males who seek to identify as women.

Surely criminologists aren't restricted from studying behaviours of criminals because of threat of 'transphobia'?

Surely criminologists aren't restricted from studying behaviours of criminals because of threat of 'transphobia'?

Oh God, can you imagine? Even talking about the current law gets a professor sent rape threats, followed, and has someone pissing up her office door.

Maria Mac was congregating, in a public area by a park, to find out the venue for a meeting. And was still punched in the face.

But criminologists Datun?

Oh God, can you imagine? Even talking about the current law gets a professor sent rape threats, followed, and has someone pissing up her office door.

Maria Mac was congregating, in a public area by a park, to find out the venue for a meeting. And was still punched in the face.

You're not on the side of the angels here nonexistentFox

O look, there is Queer theory in criminology:

Oxford University:
www.law.ox.ac.uk/centres-institutes/centre-criminology/blog/2018/06/what-queer-criminology

But criminologists Datun?

James Caspian has been involved in studying transgenderism for 10 years, and was told it was politically incorrect to study detransitioners why Bath spa University.

James Kirkup that says that MPs are too frightened to speak out. Cabinet members too.

Criminologists won't be getting a pass.

from transcrimeuk.com/2018-convictions/

"2018 Convictions
Convictions of males (ie individuals who identify as transgender women or who cross-dress)
Murder/Attempted murder: 1 charged
Charged: Liam Suleman charged with attempted murder of member of staff at a secure psychiatric hospital

Sexual offences: 9 + 2 charged (7 with child victims, 2 with adult victims)
(Note that if 1% of the population is transgender, for trans-identified males to have similar sexual offending rates as women, at least 900 women would have to have been convicted of a sexual offence so far in 2018. MoJ figures for England & Wales for the past decade consistently show approx. 100 women are convicted of a sexual offence annually – i.e. the convictions listed below indicate male pattern sexual offending, not female)

Sexual offences with child victims:
Kathleen Carpenter/Keith Thompson – Indecent assault of a child

Lana/Ben Laws – Sex offender convicted of breaching Sexual Offences Prevention Order

Neil Davies – Child sexual abuse including paying for the sexual services of a child under 18

Gary Marie / Marie Dean* – Serial sex offender who victimised both women & girls returned to prison after breaching licence conditions

David Challenor – Multiple violent & sexual offences against a 10 year old girl including rape, possession of indecent images of children

Carys Cooper – Multiple sexual offences against a young child

Jacinta Brooks/Duncan Smart – Child sexual abuse

Sexual offences with adult victims:
Karen White – Multiple rapes and sexual assault of multiple women, two of whom were in the prison where White was remanded. Two additional charges of sexual assault against two more female prisoners ordered to remain on file

Barry Mason – Public decency offences (related to performing sex acts while on the roof of his house)

Charged/remanded:
Paul Reed – Repeat offender charged with sexual assault of a woman

Richard Grattage/Vicky Green – Child sex offences

Prison transfers between male and female prisons:
Shaun Pudwell/Michelle Lewin* (child sex offender) transferred from male to female prison to await surgery

Karen White (rapist and child sex offender) transferred from female prison to male prison after sexually assaulting female prisoners

Richard Grattage/Vicky Green (child sex offender) transferred from female prison to male prison within days of being remanded

Andrew/Jacqui McWilliam* (rapist) refused permission to transfer from male to female prison

Other violent offences: 12 +1 mentally unfit to plead
Paris Bregazzi – Assault (of a police officer) and criminal damage

Chantelle Simmons – Multiple thefts & burglaries and threatened to make a false rape allegation against a victim

Tanis Wolf/Tara Wood – Assault by beating of a 60 year old woman

Callum Hughes – Multiple violent assaults against mother, father and a police officer

Rachael Bailey – Assault of police officers

Stephen/Stephanie Mottershead* – Unlawful wounding

Karen White – Stabbed a neighbour (plus rapes/sexual assaults listed above)

Norman McKeown – Assault of a healthcare professional

Tylah-Jo Bryan – Violent disorder at Leicester Sq tube station

Amarnih Lewis-Daniel – Violent disorder at Leicester Sq tube station

Michael O’Docherty/Tamzin Lush – Violent disorder at Leicester Sq tube station

Lee Baker/Tiffany Aching – Stalking and breaching a restraining order

Acquitted after deemed mentally unfit to plead:
Sarah Preece – Malicious communications (threatening messages sent to court, CPS and local newspaper)"

I would personally not deny that trans women are male sexed but as PainInTheEar says, "man" is a more subjective term.

but would still segregate according to sex as I don’t know how you could distinguish between those with body dysmorphia and those who are out to game the system.

The same why you determine that people are faking the insanity defence. People have spent thousands of years considering metaphysics and I find it kind of philistine to just disregard subjective experience because it's on the face of it trickier to pin down.

Biological sex is reality, not an identity category.

And how is it defined?

"man" is a more subjective term.

could you please define man?

could you please define man?

No, I can't, that's my point.

man=adult human male?

man" is a more subjective term.

It means adult human male. How else would you describe an adult human male?

It takes a certain kind of weirdness to decide it's it's a piece of piss to detect fake insanity, but you can't define the word man?

Ah the beauty of a society that suddenly can‘t define words any more...