Have I been overly harsh on DD?

[Toebeans]

DD 15 has ruined her bedroom carpet with make up. She has asked for new bedroom furniture for Xmas - she would have liked new carpet too but I refused as she will not stop allowing make up brushes, mascara, eye pencils etc from falling on to her carpet where they stay and soak into the carpet.

In order to clear her room of the old furniture it’s been taken into our spare room where I have recently had a NEW carpet. All her make up has been put in the spare room on her old furniture whilst we await the delivery of the new furniture.

This morning I walked in the spare room to find a brow brush caked in brown stuff on the carpet with two large marks on the carpet where it fell or was pressed in.

I went completely ballistic and swept all DD’s makeup off the dressing table into the drawers and taped them up so the make up is now out of bounds until the new furniture comes and is installed in her room. She can only have it back then as if she wants to wreck carpets she can sodding well wreck her own already stained carpets. This will mean around 3 weeks with no make up.

She’s stayed in bed feeling sorry for herself all day but I’ve ignored her - she’s been warned repeatedly about leaving makeup everywhere and the fact she has no respect for the house. This is not the only thing she does, she will drip overfull cups of coffee everywhere, leave dirty wipes over her bed, handprints up her walls - basically no respect for anything.

Have I been unreasonable?

Support for dyspraxic adults is severely limited, despite evidence they experience difficulties in employment and relationships, and are over-represented in the criminal justice and mental health systems. According to the Dyspraxia Foundation, an undiagnosed dyspraxic child is five times more likely than an average child to suffer from mental health problems by the age of 16. For those who don't go to university, there is no adult diagnostic pathway and private assessments cost hundreds of pounds.

As she is a teenaged girl, I would suggest you let her keep her concealer (and any basic skincare items) but confiscate all the "fun" stuff like eyeshadow and mascara. That would draw the line between a fair sanction and a harsh punishment.

It may not mean as much to an adult but I think it would be super grim to face high school without concealer. It's not worth affecting her self-esteem longterm just to teach her how to be tidier. x

I dropped out of university because the stress of coping with my undiagnosed dyspraxia made me try to kill myself.

I suspect others are raising the possibility for similar reasons.

Chouetted, so sorry to hear that .

When I was a kid a doctor told my mum that I had “clumsy child syndrome “ (as dyspraxia was called then) but she just thought he was saying I was clumsy in a silly way. She never realised I had a neurological disorder. Therefore I had constant scolding punishments and pisstaking and bullying all my life for the things I genuinely can’t help. Even when I try my hardest to keep to a system , to learn to do something I fuck it up. I am the weakest link. Luckily i’m Resilient and strong and creative, as dyspraxic s often are and I play to my strengths.

Is there a serious lack of comprehension here? All this 'it's her carpet let her get on with it' obviously haven't noticed that yes she's trashed the one in her own room and is now trashing another brand new carpet in the spare room. Which presumably she's in because of the decoration of her own room and furniture replacement.

Absolutely nothing wrong in the OP stopping her DD using make up in the spare room if her DD has done this already. I say this despite being dyspraxic and autistic myself.

I don't doubt that dyspraxia is a perfectly genuine condition which demands understanding, but a look through websites such as the Dyspraxia Foundation and others reveals that putting on makeup is a struggle for those who have difficulties with fine motor control. If the OP's daughter is able to put on an elaborate face of makeup, I suspect she is also perfectly capable of not dropping everything all over the floor and leaving it lying there, and messing up the house. And remember, the problem here is not just accidental messes, it is the failure to clear things up after herself--that is not dyspraxia, that is called being a teenage girl who does not give a shit and thinks Mum is there to run round after her picking things up and scrubbing makeup out of carpets.

If I had a child who was ACTUALLY diagnosed with this issue, that would of course make me more understanding about genuine accidents BUT it would not change my view that the child is still required to obey the rules of the house aimed at minimizing mess (like not applying makeup, eating or drinking outside certain areas of the house), and needs to clear up after themselves.

Dyspraxia foundation helpline will tell you the story of a very accomplished tennis player... who can't tie their own shoelaces.

DD2 can do jigsaws and spends hours playing with very intricate little play figures - it's her spatial awareness and gross motor skills that are totally fucked... I used to work around doing flicky liquid eyeliner by bodging it and taking away the errors with a cotton bud dipped in eye makeup remover.

You'd be pulled up sharpish making the sort of sweeping assumptions that you know everything about the condition based upon reading a website (which ain't the greatest to be fair - and I say that as a paid up member of the DF) with any other condition... so let's ditch the ignorance and assumptions you know it all about dyspraxia as well please?

Ffs

I’ll say again

• Dyspraxia is inconsistent and different in everyone. It can be global and effect all areas of functioning or effect just a few. It’s different in every person. It is a neurological condition that comes from the way messages are transmitted in the brain that deal with learning, planning, remembering , organising, movement. For example my fine motor skills are very good ( i’m An artist) but my gross motor skills and organisational skills are compromised.

And

• dyspraxia doesn’t give you a free pass to be lazy, disrespectful, un kind, to not try etc.

In our house our mantra is “it’s a reason things are difficult, not an excuse not to try”

Dyspraxic folk actually have to try harder than everyone else, because it takes them more practise and concentration to learn . But they can learn, it just takes longer and needs patience and specific strategies. Anger, punishment and belittling generally doesn’t work, as it just exacerbates stress, anxiety and lowers self esteem. But boundaries, routines, consequences and support, patience, self awareness and understanding can do wonders.

We don't know how long it takes for her to put on the makeup, or how much she practices. We do know that she drops an awful lot of it on the floor and we know other details too, like the personal space thing and also failing to anticipate slopping drinks out of her over filled mug, and more.

The problem is not just failure to clean up. Not anticipating that an overfilled mug will spill if you walk around with it is an issue, as is not understanding or participating in personal space conventions, and there are other details that have been supplied.

Spatial awareness is a very complex thing.

And anyway, No one suggesting that it’s definately that the OP’s daughter is dyspraxic, just suggesting she looks into it.

And even if the op’s Daughter is dyspraxic, no one is suggesting it excuses her from being kind, respectful and having consequences for mistakes. No one is suggesting it means that she’s not still a teenager with the propensity to be selfish and lazy.

That seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding on mumsnet that it’s thought that suggesting SN is akin to suggesting A get out of jail free card.

It is possible to have a position between those two mindsets, and for that position to be tailored to an individual, which involves boundaries, consequences AND support and understanding. That’s the territory that parents of SN children navigate more than most, but surely the approach that would actually benefit all parent/child relationships.

I just don’t understand this desire to think the worst in people either. To want to judge and punish and label people as bad. Rather than to seek to understand reasons behind people’s behaviour and seek to support and teach?

I am not diagnosing the daughter

I think that stating it "strongly suggests" is actually diagnosing. If a GP said that to me I would see it as a diagnosis that only needs to be confirmed.

I am suggesting that the problems that the OP has with her daughter remind me a lot of myself and My dyspraxic children and that she might have a look at the dyspraxia foundation’s website and see if it rings any bells.

They remind me a lot of myself as a child and one of my children and we haven't got dyspraxia though. It's called being a messy teenager.

I just don’t understand this desire to think the worst in people either. To want to judge and punish and label people as bad.

People are "judging" the DD for not clearing the mess up so I don't understand how suggesting she has dyspraxia effects this.

Rather than to seek to understand reasons behind people’s behaviour and seek to support and teach?

The reasons for people's behaviour are not usually anything to do with disability though. As I said, one of my children is similar to the extent that unlike OP I wouldn't have trusted her to not spill in the spare room. She keeps everything in the bedroom or the bathroom which has a laminate floor.

Dyspraxia or no dyspraxia

You still pick up, what you have dropped and you still clean up the mess that's made.

This just sounds like a careless and messy teenager to me.

Reaa, have you actually read any of my posts at all?

I'll repeat one for you!

"dyspraxia doesn’t give you a free pass to be lazy, disrespectful, un kind, to not try etc.

In our house our mantra is “it’s a reason things are difficult, not an excuse not to try”

Dyspraxic folk actually have to try harder than everyone else, because it takes them more practise and concentration to learn . But they can learn, it just takes longer and needs patience and specific strategies. Anger, punishment and belittling generally doesn’t work, as it just exacerbates stress, anxiety and lowers self esteem. But boundaries, routines, consequences and support, patience, self awareness and understanding can do wonders."

and dungeonsanddragons, Yes, I agree with you . It is possible to be messy and not dyspraxic. The majority of people do not have a disability. and if a doctor said "strongly suggest" I would be thinking too that something was highly likely. :-) and yes the daughter should still be taught to take responsibility for her mistakes, even if she did have dyspraxia.

I'm still really not sure why any of that though means that the possibility of dyspraxia should't be raised.

My dyspraxic child would make the mess and, if distraction prevented them from cleaning it immediately, forget it was there. Dyspraxia doesn’t just affect physical movements but can affect memory and the ability to sequence thoughts as well as movement.
My dc has has say through a detention for failing to do homework that was completed in his bag. He had no recollection of having done the homework or putting it in his bag.

I'm still really not sure why any of that though means that the possibility of dyspraxia should't be raised.

Because there is no good evidence that she does have it and I don't actually think it is helpful particularly as it doesn't make any difference to OP's question of whether she was too harsh. There just seems to be a tendency to suggest that every child or teenager who behaves badly has a disability on MN. You clearly perceive that to be helpful I think it does a disservice towards those who do have disabilities as their difficulties are often taken less seriously as a consequence.
Everything OP has stated just sounds like a messy teenager to me (who has one) and many others on this thread.

Well dungeonsanddragons it probably doesn't surprise you that I completely disagree with you.

• there is evidence in the OP's posts that the OP's daughter could be dyspraxic (please see OP's posts or the handy one above where I collated them all for you) I can paraphrase them here. ....... Messy beyond normal levels. Forgetful. Flat footed. No spatial awareness. Difficulty learning despite being reminded. Inability to be careful that predates teenage years. Childhood evidence of sensory issues and hand flapping. Repeatedly bangs into things. ... these are all classic dyspraxic behaviours.

• It does make a difference to the OP's question. If her daughter is dyspraxic it changes the strategies and approach the OP should use in order to support her daughter's learning. Harsh punishment for things that a person cannot help (without patient intervention and support) doesn't tend to have good outcomes.

• Less visible disabilities like dyspraxia ( and other neurological differences such as ASD, ADHD etc) need more awareness. They are as serious and deserve as much support and understanding as other disabilities. I don't follow how more awareness of the symptoms of one disability can do a disservice to another or make another disability be taken less seriously.

• You are wilfully ignoring my posts if you still think that the OP's daughter "just sounds like a messy teenager" and you can't see that there is a chance that her behaviour is undiagnosed dyspraxia.

But I guess we disagree. Glad you aren't my mum or my teacher.

and people like you are the reason why dyspraxic adults are over-represented in the criminal justice and mental health systems. Because you think that they are just "messy ", that their disability shouldn't mean they are treated differently or given any support and understanding and acknowledging their disability does a disservice to other's disabilities.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/oct/29/dyspraxia-serious-recognition

and people like you are the reason why dyspraxic adults are over-represented in the criminal justice and mental health systems.

People like me? I would suggest that the reason they are over representated could be because they aren't diagnosed and because even if they are they aren't taken seriously due to the fact that many people think it is just a case of "being messy". I appreciate you don't think that but given that you think OP's DD's behaviour "strongly suggests" dyspraxia you have given that impression.

I don't understand your first point I'm afraid, you maybe could explain that differently.

As for your second point

being Messy beyond normal levels. Forgetful. Flat footed. No spatial awareness. Difficulty learning despite being reminded. Inability to be careful that predates teenage years. Childhood evidence of sensory issues and hand flapping. Repeatedly bangs into things.

does strongly suggest dypraxia

it does not just suggest "normal" messy teenage behaviour.

I can paraphrase them here. ....... Messy beyond normal levels. Forgetful. Flat footed. No spatial awareness. Difficulty learning despite being reminded. Inability to be careful that predates teenage years. Childhood evidence of sensory issues and hand flapping. Repeatedly bangs into things. ... these are all classic dyspraxic behaviours.

Your paraphrasing actually demonstrates that you are putting your own interpretation on the words based on your experiences. Messiness is very subjective so I don't know what would be described as "normal" but many teenagers could be described as "abnormal". Many people including me are flatfooted. She didn't actually state "no spatial" awareness and many very young children who have no disabilities flap their hands and have sensory aversions to foods. To be honest if this child has dyspraxia then so have I, my DD, my mother and loads of other people I know.

I'm not suggesting that dysprexia is not a disability or shouldn't be taken seriously AT ALL. I am stating that it can't be diagnosed by an unqualified person based on their interpretation of words on the internet.

and I have never once said it can be diagnosed by an unqualified person based on their interpretation of words on the internet. I have advised the OP to look into and see if it rings any bells.

and in answer to your first paragraph ..... I can't argue that interpretation and perception are subjective and based on experience. But that list is taken from the OP's own words there IS a massive lack of diagnosis of dyspraxia. It is also a spectrum condition so it is possible to be effected mildly in only one or two areas, and therefore it not have a huge affect on your functioning.

I paraphrased no spatial awareness from the OP's quote "She has however never been able to sense her own space "

Anyway, I'll bow out now because I think all that can be said on contrasting positions has been said . Only the OP and her daughter can know any more.

Best of luck OP. Hope you and your daughter go forward happily and constructively ! x

I paraphrased no spatial awareness from the OP's quote "She has however never been able to sense her own space "

And OP's quote no doubt came from the internet and is again very subjective. It can only be stated by someone with experience of what is and isn't withing the normal range.

and I have never once said it can be diagnosed by an unqualified person based on their interpretation of words on the internet. I have advised the OP to look into and see if it rings any bells.

I know that you didn't say it could be diagnosed by an unqualified person but that is what you pretty much did when you said that the symptoms "strongly suggest" dyspraxia. Many many teenagers without dyspraxia are similar to OPs teenager.

My DD is 17 and gets bollocked for this all the time. I refuse to put new carpet down or clean the room until she moves out.

What has helped is a huge washable rug.