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MNHQ- please address the anti Irish sentiment present on Mumsnet and in your talk guidelines

573 replies

IStandWithPosie · 03/11/2018 11:03

It has become glaringly apparent there is a persistent and growing anti Irish sentiment present on Mumsnet in recent years. Not only that but the stance Mumsnet HQ have taken when made aware of the racially offensive posts has been totally inadequate. Repeated calls by Irish Mumsnet users to remove such posts and to take a stand against them have been ignored by Mumsnet HQ. This is in direct contrast to the way those with other protected characteristics have been listened to and had their reports acted upon in such a way as to leave many Mumsnet users afraid to post for fear of deletion or permanent banning. Which has happened. In light of this we are asking that all staff at Mumsnet HQ take meaningful steps to improve awareness of what anti-Irish sentiments are and the types of unacceptable posts we’re complaining about. A review of the posts that have been reported as racist would be a good starting point, and a measure of what mumsnet members collectively consider to be offensive. We also ask that talk guidelines are applied consistently across the forum for all protected characteristics and that racist posts towards or about Irish people are removed immediately.

Furthermore, Mumsnet HQ have asserted their their intention to knowingly continue to use racially offensive language in their talk guidelines The phrase “beyond the pale” dates back to the 14th century, when the part of Ireland that was under English rule was delineated by a boundary made of such stakes or fences, and known as the English Pale. To travel outside of that boundary, beyond the pale, was to leave behind all the rules and institutions of English society, which the English modestly considered synonymous with civilization itself. The phrase is rooted in the oppression of the Irish people by the English ruling classes and is offensive to Irish people. Mumsnet HQ have been asked by Irish Mumsnet users to remove this phrase from their talk guidelines. Mumsnet HQ have refused stating “there seems to be a general consensus among etymology types that it’s an idiom which has long evolved from its offensive historical context.” This completely disregards the information Mumsnet HQ have that confirm that Irish people themselves find it offensive.
We are asking Mumsnet HQ to apologise for the offense caused by their use of this inappropriate phrase and to remove it from their talk guidelines.

OP posts:
IStandWithPosie · 03/11/2018 11:05

Anyone in agreement please sign on this thread so that HQ can see the strength of feeling on this issue.

OP posts:
Giantbanger · 03/11/2018 11:06

Me.

Giantbanger.

IsabelleSE19 · 03/11/2018 11:08

I always took the phrase 'beyond the pale' to refer to the Pale of Calais. I didn't know there was one in Ireland.

Giantbanger · 03/11/2018 11:09

The one in Ireland predates the Calais pale but hundreds of years.

Giantbanger · 03/11/2018 11:09

*by

LittleBearPad · 03/11/2018 11:10

I always thought it had something to do with the Pale of Settlement in Russia. I’ve learned something Smile.

Giantbanger · 03/11/2018 11:11

Pale of Settlement in Russia is different

Beyond the pale
Q: I’ve seen many examples of “beyond the pail” on the Internet. In fact, I googled the phrase and got many thousands of hits. I’d always thought the phrase was “beyond the pale,” a reference to the Russian Jewish ghetto.

A: You’re right that the correct phrase is “beyond the pale.” You’re also right that “beyond the pail” shows up a lot on the Internet.

However, many of the Google hits are from punsters or people pointing out the error.

The language writer Michael Quinion has a great quip about this on his website World Wide Words. When asked about the meaning of “beyond the pail,” he joked, “Isn’t that where you go when you kick the bucket?”

As for “beyond the pale,” it refers to something that’s improper or exceeds the limits of acceptability.

The other phrase you refer to, about the isolation of Jewish communities in Eastern Europe, is the “Pale of Settlement.”

But the two expressions have little to do with one another, beyond their common use of the noun “pale” in the sense of a boundary or a limit.

“Beyond the pale” isn’t a reference to the other phrase, since it’s 170 years older. It was first recorded in 1720, while the first reference to the Pale of Settlement was recorded in 1890, according to the Oxford English Dictionary.

We briefly discussed these expressions on our blog five years ago, but they’re worth another look.

When the noun “pale” was first recorded in the 1300s, it referred to a wooden stake meant to be driven into the ground.

At that time, “pale” was a doublet—that is, an etymological twin—of the much earlier word “pole,” according to the Chambers Dictionary of Etymology.

Both “pale” and “pole” once had the same meaning and came from the same source, the Latin word palus.

As the OED explains, in classical Latin a palus was a stake or a “wooden post used by Roman soldiers to represent an opponent during fighting practice.”

In post-classical Latin, palus also meant a palisade (originally a fence or enclosure made with wooden stakes), or a stripe (as in heraldry).

The noun “pale” was first recorded in writing in the mid-14th century. Its original meaning, the OED says, was a stake or “a pointed piece of wood intended to be driven into the ground, esp. as used with others to form a fence.”

In the late 14th century, “pale” was also used to mean the fence itself.

In the following century, “pale” acquired a couple of new meanings.

It could be “an area enclosed by a fence,” or “any enclosed place,” to quote the OED. It could also mean “a district or territory within determined bounds, or subject to a particular jurisdiction.”

Here’s where our two expressions come in. “Beyond the pale” came first, as we said, dating from the early 18th century.

Originally the phrase was followed by “of” and it meant “outside or beyond the bounds of” something. For example, here are the OED’s three earliest citations:

“Acteon … suffer’d his Eye to rove at Pleasure, and beyond the Pale of Expedience.” (From Alexander Smith’s A Compleat History of Rogues, 1720.)

“Nature is thus wise in our construction, that, when we would be blessed beyond the pale of reason, we are blessed imperfectly.” (From Henry Mackenzie’s The Man of the World, 1773.)

“Without one overt act of hostility … he contrived to impress me momently with the conviction that I was put beyond the pale of his favour.” (From Charlotte Brontë’s Jane Eyre, 1847).

But late in the 19th century the prepositional phrase fell away, according to Oxford, and “beyond the pale” was used by itself to mean “outside the limits of acceptable behaviour; unacceptable or improper.”

That’s how it’s been used ever since, as in these two OED citations:

“Unknown, doubtful Americans, neither rich nor highly-placed are beyond the pale.” (From the 1885 novel At Bay, written by “Mrs. Alexander,” the pen name of Annie Hector.)

“If you pinched a penny of his pay you passed beyond the pale, you became an unmentionable.” (From a 1928 issue of Public Opinion.)

Now for our other “pale” expression. As we mentioned above, the use of “pale” to describe a region or territory subject to a certain control or jurisdiction dates from the mid-1400s.

When first used, the reference was to English jurisdiction, and over the centuries “the pale” (sometimes capitalized) has been used to refer to areas of Ireland, Scotland, and France (that is, the territory of Calais) when they were under England’s control.

But this sense of “pale” is perhaps most familiar in the phrase “Pale of Settlement,” which the OED says is modeled after the Russian certa osedlosti (literally, “boundary of settlement”).

Oxford defines the phrase as “a set of specified provinces and districts within which Jews in Russia and Russian-occupied Poland were required to reside between 1791 and 1917.”

The OED’s earliest citation for the use of the phrase in writing comes from Russia and the Jews: A Brief Sketch of Russian History and the Condition of Its Jewish Subjects (1890), written by an author identified as “A. Reader”:

“The Jews … as soon as the contract was completed … had to return within the ‘pale’ of settlement.”

This more contemporary example is from the Slavic and East European Journal (1999): “Deeply depressed by Jewish life in the Pale of Settlement, Gershenzon struggled to escape the ‘darkness’ and reach the light.”

As for the relationship between the two expressions, the OED has this to say:

“The theory that the origin of the phrase [‘beyond the pale’] relates to any of several specific regions, such as the area of Ireland formerly called the Pale … or the Pale of Settlement in Russia … is not supported by the early historical evidence and is likely to be a later rationalization.”

By the way, the adjective “pale,” dating from the early 1300s, has nothing to do with the noun. It comes from another source altogether, the classical Latin pallidum (pale or colorless), from which we also get the word “pallid.”

IsabelleSE19 · 03/11/2018 11:12

In case it wasn't obvious, I do not agree with designating the phrase 'beyond the pale' racially offensive.

MarDhea · 03/11/2018 11:12

Me too.
#misefreisin

What's worse than the racism from random bigoted MNers (as someone who lived in the UK for years, I'm used to a minority of British people being gobsmackingly prejudiced towards Irish people and culture) is its minimising by MN mods. Seriously. MNHQ, read up on unconscious bias and sort it out.

Schuyler · 03/11/2018 11:13

I do totally agree with you but I think this thread will descend into people justifying their use of the phrase and will go off topic. I understand you probably posted here for traffic but I think this may go off topic,

Celebelly · 03/11/2018 11:13

Who is 'we' out of interest?

IStandWithPosie · 03/11/2018 11:14

This thread is for adding your support to the request rather than explaining the origins of the phrase, the first link in the OP has explanations for why the phrase is offensive. If you don’t support it you don’t have to post on this thread, the discussion of the phrase is ongoing on the other thread.

OP posts:
IStandWithPosie · 03/11/2018 11:15

We is anyone who signs this thread in support.

OP posts:
IsabelleSE19 · 03/11/2018 11:16

The one in Ireland predates the Calais pale but hundreds of years.

I don't think this is true - it might predate it but I think it would have been within a few decades of each other? 14th century?

JaneJeffer · 03/11/2018 11:18

englishhistoryauthors.blogspot.com/2013/03/the-origin-of-beyond-pale.html
If you want to read up on Calais, etc.

I agree the phrase should be removed from the Talk Guidlines.

FlyMaybe · 03/11/2018 11:18

Don't be so ridiculous OP.

Btw it's not racist. Unless you are not white.

Oh, me and my family are Irish Catholics (Mayo and Galway). My DH's family are Lisburn Protestants.

DesperatelySeekingSense · 03/11/2018 11:19

Me. Loads more examples of it this morning in the dialect thread.

JaneJeffer · 03/11/2018 11:20

Anyone in agreement please sign on this thread
By signing here you are agreeing

Dlpdep · 03/11/2018 11:20

#Misefreisin
@IsabelleSE19 just because you haven’t heard of it and don’t agree with it, doesn’t make it any less offensive. Innocence and ignorance are not an acceptable defences for racism.

IStandWithPosie · 03/11/2018 11:20

thread discussing beyond the pale

OP posts:
CherryBlossom23 · 03/11/2018 11:22

Me

Stressedoverkids · 03/11/2018 11:24

I just don't understand why when many people say we are offended by it people insist on continuing to use it. Why?

For those arguing it's origins are in a Jewish settlement in Russia. I fail to understand how the fact that it's antisemitic helps. Surely that just makes it's use even more unreasonable.

Swanhild · 03/11/2018 11:25

#misefreisin

Alfie190 · 03/11/2018 11:25

Ridiculous. All of the Irish people on the other thread said they were not offended.

Also nationality is not a protected characteristic.

IsabelleSE19 · 03/11/2018 11:28

Innocence and ignorance are not an acceptable defences for racism.

Of course they are! How can someone be racist for using a phrase they had literally no idea was offensive? Surely the aim of these threads is to educate people?

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