MNHQ- please address the anti Irish sentiment present on Mumsnet and in your talk guidelines

[IStandWithPosie]

It has become glaringly apparent there is a persistent and growing anti Irish sentiment present on Mumsnet in recent years. Not only that but the stance Mumsnet HQ have taken when made aware of the racially offensive posts has been totally inadequate. Repeated calls by Irish Mumsnet users to remove such posts and to take a stand against them have been ignored by Mumsnet HQ. This is in direct contrast to the way those with other protected characteristics have been listened to and had their reports acted upon in such a way as to leave many Mumsnet users afraid to post for fear of deletion or permanent banning. Which has happened. In light of this we are asking that all staff at Mumsnet HQ take meaningful steps to improve awareness of what anti-Irish sentiments are and the types of unacceptable posts we’re complaining about. A review of the posts that have been reported as racist would be a good starting point, and a measure of what mumsnet members collectively consider to be offensive. We also ask that talk guidelines are applied consistently across the forum for all protected characteristics and that racist posts towards or about Irish people are removed immediately.

Furthermore, Mumsnet HQ have asserted their their intention to knowingly continue to use racially offensive language in their talk guidelines The phrase “beyond the pale” dates back to the 14th century, when the part of Ireland that was under English rule was delineated by a boundary made of such stakes or fences, and known as the English Pale. To travel outside of that boundary, beyond the pale, was to leave behind all the rules and institutions of English society, which the English modestly considered synonymous with civilization itself. The phrase is rooted in the oppression of the Irish people by the English ruling classes and is offensive to Irish people. Mumsnet HQ have been asked by Irish Mumsnet users to remove this phrase from their talk guidelines. Mumsnet HQ have refused stating “there seems to be a general consensus among etymology types that it’s an idiom which has long evolved from its offensive historical context.” This completely disregards the information Mumsnet HQ have that confirm that Irish people themselves find it offensive.
We are asking Mumsnet HQ to apologise for the offense caused by their use of this inappropriate phrase and to remove it from their talk guidelines.

#misefreisin

Me too ☘️

'on balance I’d rather err on the side of free speech than on protecting people from offence. However, now Talk Guidelines have got much more stringent and are enforced much more strongly, and I think it is wrong for some groups to be afforded a lot more protection than others.'

Agree completely with this. On a board where an OP can seemingly get a thread deleted pretty much at will because people don't agree that her MIL should be stoned to death for looking at her baby for more than two seconds (you get the drift), this does seem an odd stance for HQ to take.

Isnt this the second thread on thr exact same subject today?

@AnElderlyLadyOfMediumHeight Some of us from over on that other long thread have made a conscious decision to report everything we see that has an anti Irish undertone to it in the hope that MNHQ will see just how prevalent this kind of thing is. Some of the posts on that dialect thread are what we are taking about and reporting. Please report them too if you see it.

Isnt this the second thread on thr exact same subject today?

Seems so.

IStand - good idea - think I will report that 'common as muck' post now, actually.

What thread is that anelderlylady?

we’re soon going to have to communicate in grunts, although someone will eventually find the grunts offensive.

Why yes of course - it would obviously be offensive to descendants of Neanderthals

But you can't just make stuff up and attribute meanings to phrases or words that are incorrect then claim anyone who uses that phrase is racist by your erroneous definition.

#misefreisin
#metoo
☘️

The phrase beyond the pale is problematic for many Irish people. That is not an erroneous definition and it is minimising and racist to diminish our upset over the phrase.

giantbanger - here www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3412741-AIBU-TO-REALLY-STRUGGLE-TO-UNDERSTAND-PEOPLE-Title-edited-by-MNHQ?pg=2

The post in question is gone and the title's been amended, which is something.

If you are educated you will know there is an Irish connection. It is beside the point that the expression has other links too.
The Irish connection is more relevant to most users of this site, given the connection with the British Isles.

Even if you leave

Throwing a Paddy and Beyond The Pale out of it, I have definitely seen Anti Irish sentiment on threads, I'm thinking particularly of the very recent thread claiming that Irish writers aren't Irish.

MN let it stand on the basis that it was "interesting and educational" before backing down and realising it was a troll, and deliberately goady as numerous posters had said.

Although I realise that this is about IRISH prejudice I would like to take an opportunity to highlight that what this thread is saying is Disabled MNers experience of any thread featuring disability ever, so if the Irish threads have got to you personally start supporting disabled people on those threads against overt and covert prejudice like

Wheelchair users shouldn't get priority on buses because the people on the bus have somewhere more important to be by virtue of not being in a wheelchair

Autistic people shouldn't be allowed in saunas

My very disabled son received full PIP so if yours was cut you must be a scrounger

You have no right to complain that another mother called her disabled child an extremely offensive word, at an SN support group, and all of you who shunned her for it are miserable bitches. There's nothing wrong with it, I use it all the time.

And

Disabled people should be sterilised.

I've derailed I know but my point is, other minority groups have it hard on here. It would make a difference if those upset about THEIR minority supported others in the same struggle

( and I'm Irish) and I do support @IStandWithPosie on this

I am not Irish.

I'm racist because I've said that's not the origin of the phrase?

I agree with MN HQ on this one.

My parents are Irish and are not offended by this phrase. In modern parlance, I don’t think people use it to mean uncivilised. I certainly don’t.

As others have said, language evolves. It seems silly to try a stir people up into a froth and make something offensive when it doesn’t need to be.

Before anyone makes assumptions.

Ffs we’re soon going to have to communicate in grunts, although someone will eventually find the grunts offensive

This.

The mnhq comment about literature was shocking and offensive.

The rest...mmm, seems a bit straw-clutchy tbh. Imo it will only serve to make you look like you have a huge chip on your shoulder and thus reduce the impact of the genuine points you have.

Do I find it offensive? No. But I’m not Irish and an Irish poster is telling me it is. So consider me newly educated and count me in and count that phrase as stricken from my vocab.

I am amazed - and a tad amused - that Mumsnet is not aware of the expression’s connotations.

The mods here moderate certain of the protected characteristics more robustly than others. That in itself i believe to be discrimination.

Totally with you valley, I’ve always reported disablist posts on MN and will keep on doing it.