MNHQ- please address the anti Irish sentiment present on Mumsnet and in your talk guidelines

[IStandWithPosie]

It has become glaringly apparent there is a persistent and growing anti Irish sentiment present on Mumsnet in recent years. Not only that but the stance Mumsnet HQ have taken when made aware of the racially offensive posts has been totally inadequate. Repeated calls by Irish Mumsnet users to remove such posts and to take a stand against them have been ignored by Mumsnet HQ. This is in direct contrast to the way those with other protected characteristics have been listened to and had their reports acted upon in such a way as to leave many Mumsnet users afraid to post for fear of deletion or permanent banning. Which has happened. In light of this we are asking that all staff at Mumsnet HQ take meaningful steps to improve awareness of what anti-Irish sentiments are and the types of unacceptable posts we’re complaining about. A review of the posts that have been reported as racist would be a good starting point, and a measure of what mumsnet members collectively consider to be offensive. We also ask that talk guidelines are applied consistently across the forum for all protected characteristics and that racist posts towards or about Irish people are removed immediately.

Furthermore, Mumsnet HQ have asserted their their intention to knowingly continue to use racially offensive language in their talk guidelines The phrase “beyond the pale” dates back to the 14th century, when the part of Ireland that was under English rule was delineated by a boundary made of such stakes or fences, and known as the English Pale. To travel outside of that boundary, beyond the pale, was to leave behind all the rules and institutions of English society, which the English modestly considered synonymous with civilization itself. The phrase is rooted in the oppression of the Irish people by the English ruling classes and is offensive to Irish people. Mumsnet HQ have been asked by Irish Mumsnet users to remove this phrase from their talk guidelines. Mumsnet HQ have refused stating “there seems to be a general consensus among etymology types that it’s an idiom which has long evolved from its offensive historical context.” This completely disregards the information Mumsnet HQ have that confirm that Irish people themselves find it offensive.
We are asking Mumsnet HQ to apologise for the offense caused by their use of this inappropriate phrase and to remove it from their talk guidelines.

who?

'I genuinely believe people of colour suffer greater discrimination and injustice than Irish people. Clearly you disagree with that viewpoint. I'll bow out of this thread now.'

'I don’t think anyone on this thread has suggested the above. Can you point to where that has occurred?'

Exactly this, and it's not a competition. As an example of this, there is no doubt that women of colour suffer a lot more discrimination and injustice than white women. Does that mean that white women shouldn't speak up about their own experiences of misogyny, because women of colour have it worse than they do?

Bish did. By making that comment.

The attacks on me here and the deliberate mis-spelling of my name when it has nothing to do with gangbangs smacks of goading to me. Some of what has been said is totally abhorrent. And yet, despite HaitchQ promises to act more quickly on these issues, have not been deleted and the reports I have made have not even been responded to. It seems my hope may have been misplaced.

I totally agree

Hi there everyone,

We're getting a lot of reports about this thread. We know this is a topic really important to a lot of Mumsnetters, so we want the discussion to continue - we would like to remind everyone to address the point not the person.

Anyamumsnet will HQ be responding to the request?

Is there any chance @Anyamumsnet that you could respond to some of the emails I have sent today about some comments that have bothered me?

I hope MNHQ can come down on the side of not deleting things as much as they possibly can on all topics, even any that might upset of offend me.

The attacks on me here and the deliberate mis-spelling of my name when it has nothing to do with gangbangs smacks of goading to me.

I didn't mis spell your name and I wasn't being goady. I do apologise however if you felt that way.

There are things that have been said on this thread that are grossly offensive by any standard and far beyond what is acceptable, in my view.

But yes, it is HaitchQ call.

Bish I didn't say it was you who spelled my name wrong.

I indeed misspelt your name and corrected it immediately in my subsequent post. I’m not sure why you’re up in arms about it. It’s not your real name I imagine?

Giant I see there is difference between rape and assault by sexual penetration, and no, of course I do get the shock and acknowledgement of what's happened to you doesn't unfold in an easy way. I was a bit too strong of word and sorry if that's translated into any sense of pressure on you. You've been through enough and don't need any more!

Novice banf out of order to not immediately apologise for your mistake, bearing in mind the way you are continually trying to derail and make it about you, I would want to be being very clear about what an horrendous mistake that was, but you didn't feel that, so you didn't apologise.
This thread actually isn't about you.

...but that's somehow 'ok' because 'its not your real name'? Do you really actually believe this?
On that supposition I can call anyone a wanker, but its OK as its not their real name, I presume!
I am embarrassed to see some of the behaviour on here, but its good, its important to see it in action.
I do agree that MN don't pounce on it; letting it air really shows what's going on, but I would hate that there be any casualties on here. Keep strong, and hold firm to make sure justice prevails.

This has indeed been eye opening. I really really can't understand the logic of piling onto a thread about one form of racism to tell all the people relating the awful experiences they have had, that those experiences don't count because others have it worse.

I mean just wtf.

I am not Irish but it is very clear to me from this thread that there is still systemic racism against Irish people and I personally am now on a mission to identify and eradicate all the Irish slurs from my vocabulary. I've learned 3 from this thread and found another 2 online.

The language is jam packed full of legacy phrases and saying and I am extremely ignorant of the origins of most. But why anyone wouldn't stop using them the moment they know, I have no idea.

M3, this is when I dislose my ancestor worked in a jam factory and jam packed offends me (...joking....). I use a vast number of these English phrases and they give a huge breadth to the English language. I certainly don't mind people pointing out which ones offend them. Heaps of them relate to the UK's nautical history- sailing close to the wind etc. Lots of my ancestors were at sea as will be the case for many British and Irish.

I do worry that if we decide to excise any of them that might possibly offend anyone from our language, just like we might stop telling children the old fairy stories about wicked step mothers, beatings, starvation etc, then we lose a large part of our heritage. I remember the interesting discussions when my mother taught us what beyond the Pale meant - about the Pale settlement in Russia and obviously despite her irish roots she didn't know that some irish people take a different view on that.

However, I won't be using it on any thread with irish people on it from now on and my general life view and message to my children is "be kind" so if you know something upsets someone then you don't mention it eg you don't mention your new baby to a lady who can't have children and that kind of thing.

The English mostly like the Irish and vice versa. We have a common bond which I hope is never lost.

I agree, @M3lon that's spot on. Are those of us whose families suffered during the Second World War not allowed to talk about it? My father's side of my family is Czech and they suffered a lot during the occupation. When I talk about it, I'm not suggesting that this was anywhere near as bad as what the Jewish people went through with the Holocaust, of course it wasn't. But it was still bad.

Can't we simply show solidarity with each other's experiences, rather than feel the need to show that our suffering trumps everyone else's?

Xenia jam wtaf! Just how much that shows. Minimising.
Be kind - no, don't be racist, minimising

Can't we simply show solidarity with each other's experiences, rather than feel the need to show that our suffering trumps everyone else's?

Exactly Lizzie.

I don't think it is minimising to point out that there's a huge distinction between innocent usage of commonplace idioms and minor irritations, such as references to leprechauns or saying 'Scotch' instead of 'Scottish', and the hate-filled racism suffered by other minorities. Sectarian regions of the UK aside, there is no comparison, imo.

In my lifetime, I've experienced classism, sexism and ageism. I will probably have disablism in my future. The assumptions and put-downs of my childhood and adolescence stung at the time, but the best revenge is not giving a damn and living well. Ireland and the Irish are flying high. Instead of turning yourself into victims, be proud of your success. 'You've come a long way, baby' is a much healthier attitude than 'Me, too'.

And it continues.

thyme do you really take that stance with everyone who brings up an issue or is it just Irish people who should shut up already? I mean women in the U.K. have improved their circumstances a fair amount over the past 50 years. Women in other parts of the world don’t have things so good. So should women in the U.K. never mention experiences of sexism or discrimination? Because we have so much Moreno than we used to have and others still have it worse than us?

Well said Thymeout.

I think we are all just going to have to agree to disagree on some of these issues but at least we have all had the freedom of speech to say what we think.

Regarding the Me Too movement, yes, I do think it's a mistake to include wolf whistles or clumsy come-ons in the same category as pay-gaps and sexual assault. And I haven't yet come across a woman of my generation who thinks differently, whatever her political views. We did the heavy lifting for equal pay, right to choose and LGTB rights and think it's demeaning to be so wussy about a wandering hand.

I wrote a long post, perhaps on the other thread, on the subject of how an obsession with micro-aggressions undermines your case to have major grievances addressed. I see that it's now been deleted, so had best not say any more until I am clearer on the reason why.

I've no beef about the Irish (or the Scots, Welsh, Northerners, East Anglians or whoever else finds themselves the subject of a stereotype.)
Which is just about all of us.

Sectarian regions of the UK aside

You understand that many of the people on this thread live in the "sectarian region" you so glibly push aside. It can't be placed aside from the debate, because it's instrinsic to it.

Xenia shutting it down or trying to.
No, keep it going, and it wasnt well said Thyme
Is there anything wrong with calling out all prejudice wherever and whenever we see or encounter it. It's not OK, and no-one got very far saying oh well it happened to me, get over it!!
We need to stop it going under the radar. Ottherwise its collusion. Exactly the same as men listening to sexist comments in the locker room and not calling them on it