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MNHQ- please address the anti Irish sentiment present on Mumsnet and in your talk guidelines

573 replies

IStandWithPosie · 03/11/2018 11:03

It has become glaringly apparent there is a persistent and growing anti Irish sentiment present on Mumsnet in recent years. Not only that but the stance Mumsnet HQ have taken when made aware of the racially offensive posts has been totally inadequate. Repeated calls by Irish Mumsnet users to remove such posts and to take a stand against them have been ignored by Mumsnet HQ. This is in direct contrast to the way those with other protected characteristics have been listened to and had their reports acted upon in such a way as to leave many Mumsnet users afraid to post for fear of deletion or permanent banning. Which has happened. In light of this we are asking that all staff at Mumsnet HQ take meaningful steps to improve awareness of what anti-Irish sentiments are and the types of unacceptable posts we’re complaining about. A review of the posts that have been reported as racist would be a good starting point, and a measure of what mumsnet members collectively consider to be offensive. We also ask that talk guidelines are applied consistently across the forum for all protected characteristics and that racist posts towards or about Irish people are removed immediately.

Furthermore, Mumsnet HQ have asserted their their intention to knowingly continue to use racially offensive language in their talk guidelines The phrase “beyond the pale” dates back to the 14th century, when the part of Ireland that was under English rule was delineated by a boundary made of such stakes or fences, and known as the English Pale. To travel outside of that boundary, beyond the pale, was to leave behind all the rules and institutions of English society, which the English modestly considered synonymous with civilization itself. The phrase is rooted in the oppression of the Irish people by the English ruling classes and is offensive to Irish people. Mumsnet HQ have been asked by Irish Mumsnet users to remove this phrase from their talk guidelines. Mumsnet HQ have refused stating “there seems to be a general consensus among etymology types that it’s an idiom which has long evolved from its offensive historical context.” This completely disregards the information Mumsnet HQ have that confirm that Irish people themselves find it offensive.
We are asking Mumsnet HQ to apologise for the offense caused by their use of this inappropriate phrase and to remove it from their talk guidelines.

OP posts:
MaisyPops · 03/11/2018 12:04

Giantbanger
Haitch vs aitch is an accent thing. Lots of people near in England say Haitch. When I lived in a different region they said aitch.
How's people having a view on that anti Irish?
It's no different to people disliking yous as a non standard plural pronoun instead of you.

Equally 'I've never met a (insert name) that wasn't....' is also not anti Irish. It's someone making an observation based on their experiences. I could say most of the students I've taught with unique and creative spellings have displayed more challenging behaviour. Or a post 16 colleague has made an observation that kids who come from a specific school seem to be more arrogant and entitled on the whole.

There's some real points to be had, but deciding any reference to anything thay might possibly have a link to a country is racist seems, to me at least, to be looking for offence.

dubmumof2 · 03/11/2018 12:05

Signing in support. Mainly about the anti-Irish sentiment which does exist on MN and goes unchecked.

While I don't take offence at the use of "beyond the Pale" at all (and as you can tell from my username I live within the Pale) I do find it troubling that despite repeated requests from people that genuinely find it offensive and, yes, racist, MNHQ will not very simply remove the wording from Talk Guidelines. There are easily substitutable wordings.

One would have to conclude on the basis of all this, that MNHQ just doesn't really care enough about anti-Irish sentiment expressed here (often unconsciously) to address it in any meaningful way.

It would be nice if MN users who see the unfairness of that would show some solidarity here and let their voices be heard.

Firesuit · 03/11/2018 12:05

I just don't understand why when many people say we are offended by it people insist on continuing to use it

What evidence do you have that many people are offended by it? So far, all I've seen is two or three threads on Mumsnet, which may all have been started by the same person. (I didn't make a note of who started them.)

It's not true the millions of people are offended by something just because one person posts saying that they are.

Giantbanger · 03/11/2018 12:06

Maisy there are many threads where Irish names and spellings of names are disparaged.

Aitch vs Haitch is indeed an accent thing, it’s not wrong to say haitch and it doesn’t mark one out as stupid as I have seen stated here.

borderline11 · 03/11/2018 12:06

“there seems to be a general consensus among etymology types that it’s an idiom which has long evolved from its offensive historical context
So how come that logic isn’t applied to other races/ religions.

SilentIsla · 03/11/2018 12:06

I was aware of it when I studied History at school. Get an education that covers the areas beyond your own backyard.

JaneJeffer · 03/11/2018 12:08

it will only serve to make you look like you have a huge chip on your shoulder like the feminists are being made to look despite their genuine concerns regarding TRAs

VerbeenaBeeks · 03/11/2018 12:08

@YippeeKayakOtherBuckets
What’s wrong with NItty Gritty?

Was wondering that myself Confused Blush Grin

SilentIsla · 03/11/2018 12:08

Giantbanger

The mods here moderate certain of the protected characteristics more robustly than others. That in itself i believe to be discrimination.

Agreed.

SilentIsla · 03/11/2018 12:10

Oh, so people don’t do anything to upset the old apple cart in case they are accused of having a chip on their shoulders? What a stupid argument.

Excuse the mixed metaphors.

Giantbanger · 03/11/2018 12:10

Nitty gritty isn’t a phrase I use - I don’t remember ever using it - but it doesn’t take much to google - and I definitely won’t use it in future.

VerbeenaBeeks · 03/11/2018 12:10

I was aware of it when I studied History at school. Get an education that covers the areas beyond your own backyard

You are aware of it because you studied it at school. Lots of others didn't cover it at school.
You realise history is an absolutely massive subject, right? Even educating yourself as an adult it's not possible to cover everything.
Nobody knows everything, not even yourself.

PigletWasPoohsFriend · 03/11/2018 12:12

Although I realise that this is about IRISH prejudice I would like to take an opportunity to highlight that what this thread is saying is Disabled MNers experience of any thread featuring disability ever

I agree. Along with anthing to do with anti semitism.

InspectorIkmen · 03/11/2018 12:12

Language evolves. This must be true because every time anyone takes issue with 'would of' and/or 'could of' the cry always goes up "But languages evolves".
I too think if MNHQ capitulate to this then we might just as well start grunting at each other right now. What next after this?

Debfronut · 03/11/2018 12:13

For goodness sake. 1984 was a book of fiction not a guide book. People scared to say anything in case it offends someone is getting out of hand. Grow up OP says a proud half irish/quarter English and abit of Scotts with whiff of French thrown in......

Poodles1980 · 03/11/2018 12:13

I’m Irish and I live in the paleShock. This phrase is not offensive to the vast majority of the population of Ireland and is used as a slang term to denote people from the country rather than the big city. Like a lot of Irish phrases it has its roots in something but has evolved to mean much less. Irish people get a hard time without us playing the victim card on this one. I would be more worried about the anti Irish sentiment on mumsnet in general and the pure ignorance regularly demonstrated by our close neighbours with regards to the terrible crimes perpetrated by them on our shores for hundreds of years.

JaneJeffer · 03/11/2018 12:14

I wish everyone would stop with the grunting nonsense. Replacing a phrase with another acceptable one will not cause everyone to lose their grasp of English.

Cambalamb · 03/11/2018 12:14

I haven't seen any anti Irish sentiment. I'm half Irish btw.

MaisyPops · 03/11/2018 12:15

Giantbanger
Yes mocking Irish names is out of order.
I entirely agree there's some anti Irish sentiment on here and sign in support.

I just don't think that deciding people having a view on accents is a racist thing is necessarily helping to show the issues.

Plenty of people think any non standard, non southern received pronunciation is a sign of someone being scruffy and poorly educated. There are people who will mock any dialect grammar and refuse to accept people can switch between standard and non standard forms by saying 'ig they know how to speak/type properly so why choose to be wrong'. It's not a race or nationality issue though. It's a people being small minded issue.

JaneJeffer · 03/11/2018 12:15

I've never heard an Irish person use the expression yet suddenly there's loads of them on here who use it regularly. Very strange.

SilentIsla · 03/11/2018 12:16

Most educated people can read, no? Make it your business to go on studying.

planechocolate · 03/11/2018 12:16

I support your stance, OP.

Although having said that, I've been on MN a long time and don't recall ever coming across any blatant anti-Irish sentiments, or anything that could be interpreted as such. Incidentally, I have Irish blood from my mother's side of the family (who came to England from Ireland during the potato famine) and I don't find the term 'beyond the pale' offensive.

Charolais · 03/11/2018 12:16

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

PigletWasPoohsFriend · 03/11/2018 12:17

I've never heard an Irish person use the expression yet suddenly there's loads of them on here who use it regularly. Very strange.

I'm not sure accusing posters of lying is going to help tbh.

Feefeetrixabelle · 03/11/2018 12:17

Just googled nitty gritty and the report I found suggested it had been falsely attributed to the slave ships. It’s not a word I generally use but is it falsely attributed or is it based on slave ships?