Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

MNHQ- please address the anti Irish sentiment present on Mumsnet and in your talk guidelines

573 replies

IStandWithPosie · 03/11/2018 11:03

It has become glaringly apparent there is a persistent and growing anti Irish sentiment present on Mumsnet in recent years. Not only that but the stance Mumsnet HQ have taken when made aware of the racially offensive posts has been totally inadequate. Repeated calls by Irish Mumsnet users to remove such posts and to take a stand against them have been ignored by Mumsnet HQ. This is in direct contrast to the way those with other protected characteristics have been listened to and had their reports acted upon in such a way as to leave many Mumsnet users afraid to post for fear of deletion or permanent banning. Which has happened. In light of this we are asking that all staff at Mumsnet HQ take meaningful steps to improve awareness of what anti-Irish sentiments are and the types of unacceptable posts we’re complaining about. A review of the posts that have been reported as racist would be a good starting point, and a measure of what mumsnet members collectively consider to be offensive. We also ask that talk guidelines are applied consistently across the forum for all protected characteristics and that racist posts towards or about Irish people are removed immediately.

Furthermore, Mumsnet HQ have asserted their their intention to knowingly continue to use racially offensive language in their talk guidelines The phrase “beyond the pale” dates back to the 14th century, when the part of Ireland that was under English rule was delineated by a boundary made of such stakes or fences, and known as the English Pale. To travel outside of that boundary, beyond the pale, was to leave behind all the rules and institutions of English society, which the English modestly considered synonymous with civilization itself. The phrase is rooted in the oppression of the Irish people by the English ruling classes and is offensive to Irish people. Mumsnet HQ have been asked by Irish Mumsnet users to remove this phrase from their talk guidelines. Mumsnet HQ have refused stating “there seems to be a general consensus among etymology types that it’s an idiom which has long evolved from its offensive historical context.” This completely disregards the information Mumsnet HQ have that confirm that Irish people themselves find it offensive.
We are asking Mumsnet HQ to apologise for the offense caused by their use of this inappropriate phrase and to remove it from their talk guidelines.

OP posts:
JennyHolzersGhost · 03/11/2018 12:19

I am Irish. I was on the original thread which triggered all this discussion (the one started by a troll who claimed that a number of famous Irish writers were actually British).
I think there is a lot of ignorance on here about Irish history and indeed the history of British empire and colonialism in general. It is an absolute shocker how little British people are educated about their past.
However I think it is a mistake to get sidetracked over the question of one particular phrase.
There is a systemic problem with MN moderation which, as other posters have highlighted, extends to other minority groups too.
Asking MNHQ to educate themselves and be more sensitive to these issues in their modding decisions (and asking for more consistency and rational decisionmaking) is totally valid.

IStandWithPosie · 03/11/2018 12:19

It’s interesting how insulting some people choose to be in expressing their disagreement.

OP posts:
MarDhea · 03/11/2018 12:28

I haven't seen any anti Irish sentiment. I'm half Irish btw.

Well isn't that jolly lovely for you. What a pity the many many many Irish MNers who have witnessed and been subjected to anti-Irish sentiment on MN - and have described their experiences on other threads - have not been as lucky as you.

Dlpdep · 03/11/2018 12:32

I have a friend who is black and doesn’t find the term golliwog offensive. Does that mean that it is not a racist term?

Lizzie48 · 03/11/2018 12:32

Language really does evolve, so the origin of a word or phrase doesn't define its meaning for all eternity. Otherwise, 'gay' would still mean 'happy', which of course is not the case.

People use the phrase 'beyond the pale' to describe an action that was absolutely hideous, not as a way to be derogatory to the Irish. I can't imagine many people being aware of any Irish connotations.

It's not at all the same as saying that 'throwing a paddy' is anti Irish, as any reasonable person can understand why an Irish person might be offended. The word 'paddy' is known to be offensive to Irish people. There's also a perfectly obvious alternative phrase to use, 'throwing a tantrum'.

ElectricMonkey's post is telling, that we have far more serious anti-semitism to be fighting. I think anyone taking offence at the phrase 'beyond the pale' is simply looking for something to take offence at.

Noviceoftheweek · 03/11/2018 12:35

This is utterly ridiculous. Walk in my shoes as a black woman and see what racism really looks like.

dubmumof2 · 03/11/2018 12:37

It's quite depressing really how this thread has been deliberately derailed.....very hard for reasonable MNetters who, having become aware of the moderation bias, and wanting to show some support to do so now.

Swanhild · 03/11/2018 12:41

This is utterly ridiculous. Walk in my shoes as a black woman and see what racism really looks like.

If someone uses derogatory language towards you on Mn, you can report it and expect MNHQ to take it seriously and delete. Irish users of this forum are not for a moment minimising your experience by wanting to be accorded similar consideration.

insideoutsider · 03/11/2018 12:53

While we're it, please ban any post that has 'Blackmail', 'Black market', 'blacklist' etc because we all know where those came from.

We can't? Oh. Carry on.

Deadringer · 03/11/2018 13:01

I am Irish living in Ireland and I don't support this thread. But it's aibu and I can still post on it. What I love most about mumsnet is the freedom of speech on here, if people are offended they can report, come on and explain the offence, or leave/hide the thread. Yes lots of British people are ignorant of Irish history. I don't know a great deal about British history and I don't care much about it, doesn't make me anti British or racist. If people post ignorant stuff they get their arse handed to them, deservedly so. Yabu.

Aloethere · 03/11/2018 13:09

@Deadringer I've gone to post a few times but deleted it because I don't want to offend anyone who is already offended but I agree. I'm Irish living in Ireland and this thread doesn't represent my thoughts at all. There are some stupid threads about Irish whatever but on the whole they are just stupid not racist.

Raydan · 03/11/2018 13:17

Totally in support of this.

A lot of people trying to deflect from the core issue by focusing on "beyond the pale" rather than the overall issue raised by the OP.

ForalltheSaints · 03/11/2018 13:19

I think that anti-Irish sentiment and phrases should be recognised as offensive at times, or stupid, or just inappropriate. I'm not sure that beyond the pale is the worst in any way though.

We should also ensure that the views of the DUP are not thought of as representative of the people of Ireland, or even the six counties.

Raydan · 03/11/2018 13:20

@MNHQ have been very dismissive in their responses when posts that are blatantly derogatory to Irish ppl have been flagged. This isn't Reddit, the mods are swift to police anything considered derogatory to other groups, so it's not all equal.

Raydan · 03/11/2018 13:22

So helpful to have so many non-Irish posters here to explain what is and isn't offensive to Irish ppl. Thank goodness for you all.

VerbeenaBeeks · 03/11/2018 13:23

A lot of people trying to deflect from the core issue by focusing on "beyond the pale" rather than the overall issue raised by the OP.

Seeing as the OP raised the "beyond the pale" in the very opening comment, it's hardly deflecting if people respond to it.
It's part of what the OP was about in the first place.

PigletWasPoohsFriend · 03/11/2018 13:23

So helpful to have so many non-Irish posters here to explain what is and isn't offensive to Irish ppl. Thank goodness for you all.

There are a significant number of Irish people on these threads that don't agree with you too.

Raydan · 03/11/2018 13:25

@PigletWasPoohsFriend yes, and many who aren't Irish

Raydan · 03/11/2018 13:26

@VerbeenaBeeks I would consider it deflecting to only engage with that and not the wider message of the post

VerbeenaBeeks · 03/11/2018 13:27

Where do we stop with policing what is and isn't offensive on here?
I'm offended at the OP's username. There'll be a lot of other people who will be too. Should we ban that?
Beyond the pale isn't a phrase I use, and won't now I know some may take offence.

AiryFairyUnicornRainbow · 03/11/2018 13:27

Im irish, and I don't think MN have done any wrong, however I think this thread is embarrassing

You don't speak for all of us

Load of perpetually offended bollocks

Raydan · 03/11/2018 13:29

While I don't take offence at the use of "beyond the Pale" at all (and as you can tell from my username I live within the Pale) I do find it troubling that despite repeated requests from people that genuinely find it offensive and, yes, racist, MNHQ will not very simply remove the wording from Talk Guidelines. There are easily substitutable wordings

I share the thoughts of @dubmumof2

Raydan · 03/11/2018 13:33

Beyond the pale isn't a phrase I use, and won't now I know some may take offence.

Which is what we're asking Mumsnet to do

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 03/11/2018 13:35

@IStandWithPosie - until I read this thread, I honestly didn’t know that ‘beyond the pale’ was an offensive phrase. I knew that the pale was the boundary around a community, so inferred the meaning of the phrase from that.

I suspect that there are a lot of other people who don’t know how offensive it is to Irish people, and I can see that some education is called for.

But now I know it is offensive, I will not be using it, and I support your call for MNHQ to take this issue seriously, and to take the proper action when the phrase is used.

Bluntness100 · 03/11/2018 13:35

So helpful to have so many non-Irish posters here to explain what is and isn't offensive to Irish ppl. Thank goodness for you all

Why are you ignoring all the Irish people saying it doesn't mean that to them either and they are not offended by it. Does their opinion not count either?

If someone is being racist of course it should be stamped out. But you need to look at the intent of the words and the meaning of the phrase in popular context and what people mean when they use it.

I don't really use it, but if I did, it would not be in some way to be derogatory to Irish people. Like nearly everyone else. In this phrase one really needs to look at what it means to most people and to most people it means beyond an area that is safe, and is nothing to do with the Irish, and documented history validates that.

It's fine to say " well to me and a few others it means this" that's ok, but you need to accept that's not what it means to nearly everyone else and is not and has never been the popular meaning of the phrase.