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MNHQ- please address the anti Irish sentiment present on Mumsnet and in your talk guidelines

573 replies

IStandWithPosie · 03/11/2018 11:03

It has become glaringly apparent there is a persistent and growing anti Irish sentiment present on Mumsnet in recent years. Not only that but the stance Mumsnet HQ have taken when made aware of the racially offensive posts has been totally inadequate. Repeated calls by Irish Mumsnet users to remove such posts and to take a stand against them have been ignored by Mumsnet HQ. This is in direct contrast to the way those with other protected characteristics have been listened to and had their reports acted upon in such a way as to leave many Mumsnet users afraid to post for fear of deletion or permanent banning. Which has happened. In light of this we are asking that all staff at Mumsnet HQ take meaningful steps to improve awareness of what anti-Irish sentiments are and the types of unacceptable posts we’re complaining about. A review of the posts that have been reported as racist would be a good starting point, and a measure of what mumsnet members collectively consider to be offensive. We also ask that talk guidelines are applied consistently across the forum for all protected characteristics and that racist posts towards or about Irish people are removed immediately.

Furthermore, Mumsnet HQ have asserted their their intention to knowingly continue to use racially offensive language in their talk guidelines The phrase “beyond the pale” dates back to the 14th century, when the part of Ireland that was under English rule was delineated by a boundary made of such stakes or fences, and known as the English Pale. To travel outside of that boundary, beyond the pale, was to leave behind all the rules and institutions of English society, which the English modestly considered synonymous with civilization itself. The phrase is rooted in the oppression of the Irish people by the English ruling classes and is offensive to Irish people. Mumsnet HQ have been asked by Irish Mumsnet users to remove this phrase from their talk guidelines. Mumsnet HQ have refused stating “there seems to be a general consensus among etymology types that it’s an idiom which has long evolved from its offensive historical context.” This completely disregards the information Mumsnet HQ have that confirm that Irish people themselves find it offensive.
We are asking Mumsnet HQ to apologise for the offense caused by their use of this inappropriate phrase and to remove it from their talk guidelines.

OP posts:
Shriek · 07/11/2018 14:13

Nice throwing in there of the me, too, negatively, Thyme

IStandWithPosie · 07/11/2018 14:14

yes, I do think it's a mistake to include wolf whistles or clumsy come-ons in the same category as pay-gaps and sexual assault.

That wasn’t what I asked you at all. I asked you if women in the U.K. should shut up about sexism and discrimination because a) things are a lot better than they were (Ireland and the Irish are flying high. Instead of turning yourself into victims, be proud of your success. 'You've come a long way, baby' is a much healthier attitude than 'Me, too'. and b) other women elsewhere in the world have it worse. (I don't think it is minimising to point out that there's a huge distinction between innocent usage of commonplace idioms and minor irritations, such as references to leprechauns or saying 'Scotch' instead of 'Scottish', and the hate-filled racism suffered by other minorities.)

Btw you are minimising to refer to some of what was discussed on this thread as minor irritations.

The assumptions and put-downs of my childhood and adolescence stung at the time, but the best revenge is not giving a damn and living well.

That’s not revenge. That’s just living your life. No consequences for the perpetrators. It doesn’t affect them at all whether you live well or not. not to suggest that I think you should seek revenge, just stating that it’s not revenge to carry on your life after being abused in some way. You’re still well within your rights to talk about that abuse as being wrong whilst enjoying your good life.

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Somerville · 07/11/2018 14:19

Your point is a very confused one, Thyme. Irish people don't face 'hate-filled racism" like other minorities? Except that we do, especially in Northern Ireland where we were for many years the minority. Still, today, the constuencies are gerrymandered (see UK border commission report anyone who doens't know what I mean); there are the huge bonfires with effigies of our leaders, the RoI flag and hateful signs; there are still marches and processions with chanting about killing us. Yet you so think that is aside from the point. The fact that this oppression is still ongoing - and at risk of getting worse because of anti-Irish sentiment being stirred up over Brexit/undermining of GFA is intrinsic to the problem.
I hate all racism and oppression. It's not a competition. I don't know why people want to minimise my lived experiences - pulled out of parents carby an English squaddie for "smelling like a taig" at the old border and sexually assaulted; witnissing another put a gun in my cousin's mouth because her puppy gambolled towards him, and many more - by saying others have it worse like that should make me stay quiet?? It's because I've experienced such brutal racism that I want to expose the smaller agressions, that are getting worse, now, before my children have to go through what I did.

UseditUpandWoreitOut · 07/11/2018 15:05

We did the heavy lifting for equal pay, right to choose and LGTB rights and think it's demeaning to be so wussy about a wandering hand.

What generation's that then, Thymeout? I'm 58 and I strongly disagree with you.
wussy about a wandering hand bet you think it's PC gone mad. ffs

Thymeout · 07/11/2018 15:08

As I've said, at least twice before, the Troubles are historic in terms of scale of violence. I've deliberately avoided talking about them, because we suffered, too, on mainland UK, the victims of the IRA bombings and relatives of soldiers killed in Northern Ireland. I've no doubt there was suspicion and hostility in England towards the Republic and its citizens during the 80s. And yes, it's not over. It's only days ago that the alleged perpetrator of the Hyde Park and Birmingham bombings has faced legal proceedings. A pp said that there was fellow feeling between the Irish and Palestinians because they both suffered similar oppression. I might point out that there was also a more sinister link, given the IRA travelled to Hamas training camps to refine their bomb-making skills.

But, in the spirit of the GFA, I think it would be better to let all that lie. Raking it up again serves no purpose. It is difficult to see what the majority of users of this site can do to solve the problems of sectarianism when Westminster has devolved powers to Stormont. The original inspiration for these threads was the use on a primarily UK site of an idiom of uncertain derivation and that is a much safer topic.

Presumably you want to convert people to your point of view. Effectively no-platforming posters who disagree with you, by deletions and personal attacks, means you will end up in an echo-chamber of confirmation bias. Just something to bear in mind.

Thymeout · 07/11/2018 15:12

UseditUp. Same generation as Germaine Greer, Catherine De Neuve, Chrissie Hynde. Old enough to be your mother. Grin

Shriek · 07/11/2018 15:15

Thyme yes that's your past, we weren't being oppressed and that is over!

It's really not what this is about. Again I don't see it as a valid point for trying to minimise what is still going on, or try to shut it down.

a wandering hand ??? That's assault!! Jeez

Lizzie48 · 07/11/2018 15:17

@Thymeout

The point about 'Me too' is that for a very long time women weren't able to speak out about their experiences, and for a lot of women in the world that is still the case. (The charity I work with helps Central Asian women and that's definitely the case for them.) I've typed some of their stories and they all say how it's helped them to be able to tell their stories. For me, that's what 'Me too' is all about.

I'm a survivor of childhood SA. For years my memories were repressed because I didn't understand that what I was going through was something that shouldn't happen, as I was very young when it started. I had flashbacks as an adult, but I only understood the truth of it when my DDs came to us, because for me, keeping them safe is what matters and I saw that I hadn't been protected in that way as a child.

I could say, I've done all right for myself, I have a loving DH and 2 lovely DDs. My life isn't like that experienced by the Central Asian women, therefore I should just live well from now on. But that's no revenge, as the perpetrators of our abuse are dead, including our abusive F.

I don't say to other women saying 'Me too' that their experiences were somehow less than mine, because it was only wolf-whistles or groping. It's part of the same problem, misogyny, that patriarchy that leads men to think women and girls (and boys too in some cases) are their property.

It's about women standing together and speaking up for ourselves, which a lot of us weren't able to do before.

Thymeout · 07/11/2018 15:26

Lizzie I respect your experience which certainly qualifies for Me Too. I am very sorry that it happened to you and understand how it would colour your hopes and fears for your dds.

But I can't engage on Me Too now. Too big a subject.

I only came back to this thread as a break from the US elections elsewhere. If I don't get up and walk around soon, I'll lose the use of my legs.

Lizzie48 · 07/11/2018 16:14

That's okay. I wasn't really looking for a debate on this thread, as 'Me too' has been discussed elsewhere on MN. But I did want to explain why the campaign has been so important to those of us who have suffered sexual assault. It's a way of expressing solidarity with each other's experiences, not a way of claiming 'top trumps' in the suffering stakes.

I think the same can true when it comes to racial prejudice.

Somerville · 07/11/2018 16:27

Presumably you want to convert people to your point of view. Effectively no-platforming posters who disagree with you, by deletions and personal attacks, means you will end up in an echo-chamber of confirmation bias. Just something to bear in mind.
You think me disagreeing with you is no-platforming you? 😂
Oh, and all deletions have been made by HQ, not by Irish posters, for breaking the rules of this site.

We are talking in this thread about our lived experiences, earlier in our lives and ongoing, as Irish women. And our fears about the future. You want us to STFU because other minority groups have it worse... or something of that ilk - I find it difficult to follow your logic, to be honest.

We see what you are doing and it won’t work.

IStandWithPosie · 07/11/2018 16:28

For anyone who doesn’t understand or see what we’re talking about, here’s an example. This comment was just posted on a thread on MN about a rape trial where a defence lawyer drew attention to the alleged victims choice of underwear.

Absolutely disgusting and the counselor for the accused who said that was a woman!

The victim laid down in wet mud willingly?

Unsurprised this was in Ireland.

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Xenia · 07/11/2018 17:29

That is a critcism about a defence barrister's comments, not about MN though surely? And we don't have the context. Eg if he meant it rains a lot in parts of ireland compared with Saudi Arabia then it might be like those of us suing beyond the Pale in its normal English meaning which has nothing whatsoever to do with any kind of slur against the irish.

IStandWithPosie · 07/11/2018 17:32

It was a comment posted on mumsnet. Do you not understand what was said? I can link the thread if you want to see it in full. MNHQ have deleted the post on the original thread but it is exactly as I have posted it here.

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IStandWithPosie · 07/11/2018 17:35

And it was a female defence lawyer. It says that in the post. I’m less and less convinced you actually read it.

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geekaMaxima · 07/11/2018 18:04

Posie I know exactly the comment and thread you mean and it was quite right that such an openly racist comment was deleted. I commend your patience and persistence regarding this issue, btw.

Xenia your constant minimising and gaslighting is disgusting. I've seen you do it elsewhere on threads about Ireland: needling other posters as much as you possibly can without blatantly contravening the talk guidelines. You are part of the problem.

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 07/11/2018 18:21

Wrt “Me Too” - I think that a society that turns a blind eye to minor sexist acts and comments provides a fertile breeding ground for worse sexism - and conversely, a society in which we all try, at the most basic level, to treat others with respect, and try not to cause unnecessary offence, ought to help build a society that is more likely to be respectful, equal and fair at all levels.

JaneJeffer · 07/11/2018 18:22

you will end up in an echo-chamber of confirmation bias.
Research has shown that the echo-chamber is a myth

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 07/11/2018 18:26

I forgot to say - what I said about a society that turns a blind eye to minor sexism applies equally to other -isms - so that is why I support the OP of this thread - because even if the racism against Irish people on here is not as bad as the everyday racism black people face (and I am not saying that I think this), a society that thinks any racism is OK is going to be a society where people feel it is OK to be racist at all levels, and in the most serious ways.

Please note - I am not saying any racism is acceptable.

ginyogarepeat · 07/11/2018 19:19

Great posts @SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius

UseditUpandWoreitOut · 07/11/2018 19:22

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

MarDhea · 07/11/2018 19:24

a society that thinks any racism is OK is going to be a society where people feel it is OK to be racist at all levels, and in the most serious ways.

This.

IStandWithPosie · 07/11/2018 19:35

Very well put SDTG. It puts me in mind of the Martin Niemoller poem “first they came”.

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