MNHQ- please address the anti Irish sentiment present on Mumsnet and in your talk guidelines

[IStandWithPosie]

It has become glaringly apparent there is a persistent and growing anti Irish sentiment present on Mumsnet in recent years. Not only that but the stance Mumsnet HQ have taken when made aware of the racially offensive posts has been totally inadequate. Repeated calls by Irish Mumsnet users to remove such posts and to take a stand against them have been ignored by Mumsnet HQ. This is in direct contrast to the way those with other protected characteristics have been listened to and had their reports acted upon in such a way as to leave many Mumsnet users afraid to post for fear of deletion or permanent banning. Which has happened. In light of this we are asking that all staff at Mumsnet HQ take meaningful steps to improve awareness of what anti-Irish sentiments are and the types of unacceptable posts we’re complaining about. A review of the posts that have been reported as racist would be a good starting point, and a measure of what mumsnet members collectively consider to be offensive. We also ask that talk guidelines are applied consistently across the forum for all protected characteristics and that racist posts towards or about Irish people are removed immediately.

Furthermore, Mumsnet HQ have asserted their their intention to knowingly continue to use racially offensive language in their talk guidelines The phrase “beyond the pale” dates back to the 14th century, when the part of Ireland that was under English rule was delineated by a boundary made of such stakes or fences, and known as the English Pale. To travel outside of that boundary, beyond the pale, was to leave behind all the rules and institutions of English society, which the English modestly considered synonymous with civilization itself. The phrase is rooted in the oppression of the Irish people by the English ruling classes and is offensive to Irish people. Mumsnet HQ have been asked by Irish Mumsnet users to remove this phrase from their talk guidelines. Mumsnet HQ have refused stating “there seems to be a general consensus among etymology types that it’s an idiom which has long evolved from its offensive historical context.” This completely disregards the information Mumsnet HQ have that confirm that Irish people themselves find it offensive.
We are asking Mumsnet HQ to apologise for the offense caused by their use of this inappropriate phrase and to remove it from their talk guidelines.

AiryFairyUnicornRainbow

Exactly.

@Bluntness100 if you'd read my later comments you would see that I personally don't find the phrase offensive. However I do believe that many other people do and on that basis I think it's inappropriate to use in section of guidelines about what is and isn't offensive. There are a dozen other ways Mumsnet HQ could express the same intent. Why would they not just take the feedback and change the language?

Bloody hell! Again?

Nitty Gritty: that was an equality and diversity fuck up by Bristol Council. Someone had a flight of fancy, made it up! The etymology of the term has no links with the salve trade - there's been a lot of research done, to the embarrassment of the council!

Beyond the Pale: that's a phrase that has been adopted by some Irish people, as if it only applies to them. Yes, it has been used to denigrate many peoples over the centuries, it is usually used to mean "Those people who live over there / Those who are not us / Those people we shun!" It was used centuries prior to being applied to Ireland.

It originally meant anyone who came from outside the safe pallisade (pales, as in palings) of your own home - like a foreigner, a stranger, a merchant etc etc!

Over the years it has been said to be racist, pale = whit; beyond it being black = racism! Equally not the meaning of the phrase nor the way it is commonly used.

I don't really care of someone wants to own a phrase and see it as a slur. I could probably think of a few innocuous phrases I could choose to take personal offence to! But, as neither of those 2 phrases has ever commonly, let alone exclusively, been used to mean either black or Irish people I don't think they should / will be banned from anywhere.

So, just as I won't shut up and allow women to become womxen I won't stop using common, non derogatory, turns of phrase just because someone says it if offensive. Nobody has the right not to be offended.

Rule of thumb has roots in acceptable domestic abuse so are people offended by this term? (Not trying to derail just this thread has made me curious about the origins of phrases)

As a general point about "prejudice on Mumsnet" the problem is the keyboard bigot someone who holds these dreadful opinions but wouldn't dream of admitting to them on their Facebook or in person to friends because they know what they class as an "unpopular opinion" is actually bigotry.

Without naming a name, there is a poster, who posts often and with what I would call solid name recognition who I have seen post witty things, things I identified with, things that made my heart ache for them, and things that made me think we'd be good friends. Once on a thread, they made a comment so outrageously offensive and prejudiced, MN deleted it, and now always they are tarred for me with "though we may have things in common THAT is who you are"

What I mean is that the person we see making the outrageous comment could be our SIL our DM our best friend and we would be none the wiser.

MN makes it the responsibility of the minority group to "educate" in these instances, instead of being zero tolerance and it's wrong because

My name is Valley, I'm disabled but I cannot presume to be the spokeswoman for every disabled person

My name is Valley and I'm Irish, I can't presume to speak for all Irish people particularly as I don't live there

When placed in that position of The Educator you find yourself fighting a battle you cannot win because oddly enough massive bigots are utterly dumbfounded and affronted to be informed they are bigots, and report MN's designated "Educator" who then gets deleted for offending bigots with reality.

That is an excellent post valley, particularly your last paragraph.

Irish and not offended in the slightest.

Love your post @ValleyClouds

I asked my Irish colleague about it recently. He never heard of the expression. He asked his mum and she said it wasn't anti Irish and that it was a phrase she used.

I worked for an Irish organisation a few years ago (mostly Irish staff from the Republic) and it was a phrase the Irish staff used. I only ever heard that it was anti Irish on Mumsnet.

Not offended in the slightest. I think this determination to be outraged paints us all in a bad light and minimises the very real discrimination faced by many minority groups today.

Well said Valley

@jimmyhill well consider me corrected. Why you felt the need to shout I don't know.

I agree with the OP.

I’m pleased to see that MNHQ are making speedy deletions, on this thread at least. Let’s hope that’s the sign of a new approach to dealing with those who seek to goad Irish people.

#misefreisin.
And Bluntness why are you once again defending something just because some people don't find it offensive.

You were very quick to defend throwing a paddy on my recent thread. Why on earth would you keep using or defend the use of something that we are telling you is offensive.

This is a very depressing thread. But I am glad it was made.

I'm not entirely sure it's not coming from racism. I am quite dark and swarthy - Southern European looking . Have had a few slurs all my life about pikeys, kikes (due to my Hebrew name) , being Middle Eastern etc but more commonly 'You don't look Irish' when asked (which I am constantly) what my background is. I knew I was Irish but had it tested - I'm only 2% Scandinavian I am 98% European and look Jewish/Lebanese etc - it bothers a certain type a lot!!!

I partially take your point on that @amicissimma though without resorting to TAAT examples the instances I had in mind were rather more clear cut

I’m pleased to see that MNHQ are making speedy deletions, on this thread at least. Let’s hope that’s the sign of a new approach to dealing with those who seek to goad Irish people.

There have been deletions on a few of these threads of people on both sides of the 'debate.'

But that isn’t where they are rooted. So... no.

Why are people so determined to see themselves as victims, even to the extent of harking back centuries to do so? At the moment, English people are queuing up to get Irish passports so they can have the advantage of EU citizenship after Brexit. Many Northern Irish citizens wish that N.I. had the same enlightened laws regarding abortion as the Republic. Celebrate that instead.

I clicked on this thread because I was surprised to hear about anti-Irish
discrimination on Mumsnet. And it's all about the derivation of an idiom, which may or may not relate to Ireland in the dark ages. Really! No one who uses it does so with any idea of causing offence to the Irish. I'm sure anyone who did want to offend the Irish could come up with something a lot more specific and derogatory if they put their mind to it. At least, they'd choose something that didn't need a dictionary to identify it as an insult.

I''m glad that Mumsnet has refused to ban it. It's a trend that needs nipping in the bud.

It's not just about that though Thyme. This all started because of a couple of threads which were reported as being goady to Irish people and which MN took ages to delete.

@Thymeout thanks for your post.

If looking at the phrase BTP in isolation the complaints that have been made may seem excessive. But to clarify, *the request is to delete the phrase from the talk guidelines about what is offensive language, not that no one can ever use the phrase on Mumsnet.

The frustration a number of posters have felt this week regarding anti-Irish sentiments comes from a thread which ran on Tuesday suggesting Oscar Wilde and other famous writers were really English because they had RP accents and expensive educations. It wasn’t pleasant.

Various posters complained that the thread was offensive and offended talk guidelines , @MNHQ posted saying that they’d keep it up because it raised interesting academic questions (it didn’t IMO) eventually the thread WAS deleted because HQ realised the poster had previously been banned for being goady. We have been asking since Tuesday for @Mnhq to explain why the thread wasn’t deleted sooner for being offensive. They refuse to engage, it took four days for them to say ‘sorry we didn’t respond sooner to your complaints we’ll try to in future. It appears Mumsnet is not prepared to consider that there may be shortcomings in how they moderate anti-Irish attitudes in this site (and they exist, take a look at the Brexit threads and Irish names threads if you want) and that is the root of our complaint. The fact that talk guidelines use the phrase BTP is just the icing on the cake really.

Happy to add my name.

I don't like "beyond the pale", but I do accept that it means different things to different people. (I think "throwing a Paddy is absolutely awful though, and can never quite believe it's allowed to stand.) However, the debate about that phrase threatens to overshadow the bigger issue. I've been here donkeys and have long noticed anti Irish sentiment, and worse, that it's seemingly acceptable.

I hope @BroomstickOfLove doesn't mind me copying her post from the other thread, but I thought she put it perfectly:

But being told to be nice to trolls is out of order. And the thing is that the anti-Irish posts here don't consist of people writing "Irish people are a load of stupid, drunken uncultured backwards peasants and criminals". It's always phrased quite politely, in tones on faux- (and sometime even genuine) naïvity. "I would never use the name Conor. I'm a teacher and I've never met a Conor who wasn't a menace". "I've been offered a job in Dublin, but my sister's a lesbian - what would she have to deal with if she visits me?" "Why would people from Eire care about a border with the UK - had one for ages without a problem" "Halloween is a tacky American import and I want nothing to do with it' etc.