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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

MNHQ- please address the anti Irish sentiment present on Mumsnet and in your talk guidelines

573 replies

IStandWithPosie · 03/11/2018 11:03

It has become glaringly apparent there is a persistent and growing anti Irish sentiment present on Mumsnet in recent years. Not only that but the stance Mumsnet HQ have taken when made aware of the racially offensive posts has been totally inadequate. Repeated calls by Irish Mumsnet users to remove such posts and to take a stand against them have been ignored by Mumsnet HQ. This is in direct contrast to the way those with other protected characteristics have been listened to and had their reports acted upon in such a way as to leave many Mumsnet users afraid to post for fear of deletion or permanent banning. Which has happened. In light of this we are asking that all staff at Mumsnet HQ take meaningful steps to improve awareness of what anti-Irish sentiments are and the types of unacceptable posts we’re complaining about. A review of the posts that have been reported as racist would be a good starting point, and a measure of what mumsnet members collectively consider to be offensive. We also ask that talk guidelines are applied consistently across the forum for all protected characteristics and that racist posts towards or about Irish people are removed immediately.

Furthermore, Mumsnet HQ have asserted their their intention to knowingly continue to use racially offensive language in their talk guidelines The phrase “beyond the pale” dates back to the 14th century, when the part of Ireland that was under English rule was delineated by a boundary made of such stakes or fences, and known as the English Pale. To travel outside of that boundary, beyond the pale, was to leave behind all the rules and institutions of English society, which the English modestly considered synonymous with civilization itself. The phrase is rooted in the oppression of the Irish people by the English ruling classes and is offensive to Irish people. Mumsnet HQ have been asked by Irish Mumsnet users to remove this phrase from their talk guidelines. Mumsnet HQ have refused stating “there seems to be a general consensus among etymology types that it’s an idiom which has long evolved from its offensive historical context.” This completely disregards the information Mumsnet HQ have that confirm that Irish people themselves find it offensive.
We are asking Mumsnet HQ to apologise for the offense caused by their use of this inappropriate phrase and to remove it from their talk guidelines.

OP posts:
MarDhea · 03/11/2018 11:29

Also nationality is not a protected characteristic.

You're wrong. It is.

In the Equality Act (2010):
Race includes—
(a) colour;
(b) nationality;
(c) ethnic or national origins.

Prefer · 03/11/2018 11:29

Seems you’re getting in a fluster about nothing? I’m Irish, I understand the origin of the phrase but I’m still not offended and actually use it myself occasionally. Language evolves, it’s a phrase that may have dubious origins but is far removed from them today.

Lighten up OP - have you considered a hobby?

Giantbanger · 03/11/2018 11:31

14th century and 11th century aren’t a few decades in my book.

JaneJeffer · 03/11/2018 11:32

Well you know now Isabelle

IsabelleSE19 · 03/11/2018 11:34

www.independent.ie/regionals/droghedaindependent/localnotes/the-english-pale-in-ireland-27106242.html

This Irish newspaper article says that the Irish Pale was defined in 1495 - the Calais one dates to the mid 14th century during the Hundred Years War.

IStandWithPosie · 03/11/2018 11:34

Rude comments aren’t necessary. We’ve had them all before, this isn’t the thread for them. This thread is for posting your name if you support the request. If you don’t support it that’s no problem, just don’t sign.

OP posts:
Sunisshining3228 · 03/11/2018 11:35

Agree people not Irish shouldn’t use this phrase. Some Irish people are not offended but that doesn’t mean it’s not offensive.
For me the phrase is in the same category as nitty gritty
People might not mean to be offensive using it but it’s origins are horrible.

Sakura7 · 03/11/2018 11:35

Signing in support. It's not just about 'beyond the pale' but wider anti Irish sentiment which does exist on MN and goes unchecked.

Somerville · 03/11/2018 11:37

Those trying to justify anti-Irish sentiment as acceptable because “Irish is not a race so it’s not racist” are wrong. Both morally - just listen to yourselves - and legally; the Equality Act 2010 defines racism as prejudice because of your race which means your colour, or your nationality (including your citizenship)

Amongst my community (NI Catholic) “beyond the pale” is widely considered to be offensive and discriminatory, based on the history of oppression on our island by the English, and ongoing discrimination by Loyalist types who like to trumpet that phrase. MNHQ are disregarding that context, and some of their moderation decisions also dismiss the wider context of anti-Irish oppression and discrimination.

Giantbanger · 03/11/2018 11:37

Beyond the pale is one phrase.

Throwing a paddy another.

The wider sense on her that Irish names are hard to prmounce and spell, the whole “I have never taught a Conor that wasn’t a pain” or the aitch haitch debate where the Irish pronounciation is said to be wrong, Halloween is American ... I could go on

YippeeKayakOtherBuckets · 03/11/2018 11:38

What’s wrong with NItty Gritty?

Ffs we’re soon going to have to communicate in grunts, although someone will eventually find the grunts offensive.

Swanhild · 03/11/2018 11:38

yy Somerville.

IStandWithPosie · 03/11/2018 11:39

For anyone struggling to see the problem, a lot of MNers have taken the time to explain it in depth on this thread

Any questions are probably already answered over there so it’s worth having a read before deciding if you agree or not. It is a long thread but worth reading IMO.

OP posts:
IsabelleSE19 · 03/11/2018 11:39

I'm sorry if I'm upsetting people, but I think getting hung up on phrases like 'beyond the pale' is a waste of time and energy. It risks damaging the fight against genuine bigotry against Irish people.

JaneJeffer · 03/11/2018 11:41

Isabelle and others please read the other thread so that you can see how complaints from Irish posters are dealt with by MN

LoveManyTrustfew · 03/11/2018 11:42

Not too late to get a life OP.

Jackeen from the pale.

Grin
RavenWings · 03/11/2018 11:43

Two issues here. One is the anti Irish sentiment, which I've seen and reported before - that needs to be dealt with.

The other is the beyond the pale thing, and speaking as an Irish person I don't find it offensive (and I've known the origins of it for a long time). I don't support you in wanting MNHQ to stop using the phrase.

If you don't like me not agreeing with you here, well that's unfortunate for you. You're conflating the two issues so people do need to say what they do and don't agree with.

IsabelleSE19 · 03/11/2018 11:43

And I understand that this thread was not intended for this argument, so I will stop here. I hadn't seen the other one before I saw this one.

JaneJeffer · 03/11/2018 11:43
Hmm
JaneJeffer · 03/11/2018 11:44

Hmm was for LoveMany

Somerville · 03/11/2018 11:44

How can someone be racist for using a phrase they had literally no idea was offensive?
MNHQ does know it is offensive. Many of us have raised it with them many times. I’ve let it go, in the past, when Mumsnet was more lightly moderated, because on balance I’d rather err on the side of free speech than on protecting people from offence. However, now Talk Guidelines have got much more stringent and are enforced much more strongly, and I think it is wrong for some groups to be afforded a lot more protection than others.
Basically, I entirely agree that MNHQ get to choose the rules here, but it becomes unfair (and yes, discriminatory) when they are not enforced consistently.

SilentIsla · 03/11/2018 11:45

Me.

IStandWithPosie · 03/11/2018 11:45

Thanks for that feedback raven.

OP posts:
JaneJeffer · 03/11/2018 11:46

It's not as if that is the sole phrase that can be used to express what they want to say. They've been told that many Irish posters find it offensive and yet they use etymology as an excuse not to change it.

AnElderlyLadyOfMediumHeight · 03/11/2018 11:47

'I agree the phrase should be removed from the Talk Guidlines.'

I also agree with this.

IIRC it took a lot of persistence by a lot of posters to get MNHQ to sort out their attitudes to disablism (perhaps some of the issues are even still ongoing). Rather disappointing to see the same pattern with regard to another issue. And it is about much more than 'beyond the pale'. ('Dialect bugbears' thread this morning with someone declaring 'Mam' and 'haitch' to be 'common as muck').