When did we become ok with the burka?

[Banana8080]

In my childhood (80s90s) I remember being sad some Muslim women were pressured not to show their full faces in public ie become invisible. These days much more focus on a women right to choose aka wear the full vail, even those who are possible under pressure.

When/why did this change happen?

We have listened

It doesn’t mean I am going to agree with the growing influence of a conservative form of Islam

Indeed- "listened to" is not a synonym for "rolling over and completely agreeing".

Shall I demand your nipples are available to the casual observer?
If you did you'd get arrested for sexual harassment.

What reason do you have for covering them?
The law in the UK requires women to dress without causing public offence. A woman walking in public with her nipples showing would be deemed to be offending public sensitivities and likely to be charged with 'indecency' or behaviour likely to disturb the peace.

Just because you don’t understand the restrictions placed on men’s dress doesn’t mean they aren’t there

Do men wear burqas?

I don't feel like it's relevant whether I am OK with it or not. I am a white non muslim. I am not qualified to have an opinion

I think every British citizen is entitled to have a view on the normalisation of extreme religious practices in the UK.

zzzzzz fair point but I don’t see a Muslim mans face covered up in the name of religion. Do you? So no I don’t think your comment counts. It’s actually many years of oppression against women - that’s what it is. Yes Muslim women believe it’s normal, as it’s what they have been raised in. Compared that to what the men wear, there are few of any Muslim men covering their faces. Sorry but true.

I don't feel like it's relevant whether I am OK with it or not. I am a white non muslim. I am not qualified to have an opinion
In a democratic society like the U K you do!

Somalian born author and activist, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, describes Muslim headscarves as a means in which a deeply patriarchal culture oppresses women. “The veil deliberately marks women as private and restricted property, non-persons,” she said.“The veil sets women apart from men and apart from the world; it restrains them, confines them, grooms them for docility.“It is the mark of a kind of apartheid, not the domination of a race but of a sex.”

The unpalatable truth is that the root cause of much of the world’s entrenched misogyny in 2015 is Islam and it manifests itself in a variety of ways including the requirement for women to cover up.This is not something to be celebrated or emulated. Rita Panahi, The Telegraph

A few years ago my children started to attend a Turkish language Saturday School. My husband is Alevi Muslim.
As soon as they got there they were ushered into separate classrooms.
One for the boys and one for the girls. My daughter was met by her teacher wearing a full black Burkha. It was a shock. My daughter was baffled at what this lady was wearing and said she was scared and wanted to stay with her brother. The teacher said she would remove her face veil when any men had left the room and for my daughter not to be scared. Although this lady was very pleasant and kind much of her teaching seemed to focus on instructing the girls as to how they are expected to behave around boys. My daughter was repeatedly told not to laugh or smile in the company of boys? It was only exceptable to be quiet and to not seek to draw attention to yourself.
The lovely Pakistani community who lived around this Mosque would bring in offerings of food every Saturday. Anyone was welcome to come in and share this food. My sons group of boys were always told to eat first. My daughter used to complain bitterly that for the girls there was never much food left. They don't attend this school anymore.

StoneofDestiny i have the right to an opinion of course but I am saying I don't feel qualified to have one. If I wanted to I could widely research the subject and come to an educated opinion. I have not done this, neither (I suspect) have many of the posters on this thread. The subject is not a straightforward one and the arguments on both sides are complex. I would be arrogant to stand up and say I think it is wrong without knowing more. A Muslim woman who has studies and followed her faith is far better placed to hold an opinion and you will get arguments on both sides if you ask Muslim women.

Great comment Moominfan, a concept designed by men to avoid men being “aroused” by certain parts of a woman being exposed - and it has been marketed so well that women now believe it’s a pro-women choice. Oh, these poor helpless men that can’t control their urges, instead of focusing on that as a problem we’ll cover ourselves to save them from themselves. I despair

I personally do not like the burka or Niquab, how can an item of clothing that I imagine is restrictive to wear, and hot be a choice for women. That is dreadful Turkkadin, really evident that in the Islamic culture women are second class citizens, and it is women's responsibility not to make men so astray or allure them, and the wearing of the burka is part of this.

much of the world’s entrenched misogyny in 2015 is Islam

I consider this to be bollocks. You only have to look on threads here to know that misogyny is alive and well in western Europe. We are not free from it, it just manifests itself in different ways. Look at porn, the #metoo campaign, sexting, gender pay gap, public data on DV, rape convictions etc.

How many women have been brainwashed into thinking it is their choice, when in fact it is ingrained in their culture from a very young age. Why else would they wear the burka or Niquab, solely to not attract men to not expose themselves to them.

I don't know the answer. I'm white non Muslim so there will be elements I don't know. But a few considerations.

I once read that the Burka was first worn by relatives of The Prophet pbuh as they were getting bothered when they went out. So it was to hide who they were - not for modesty. No idea if that's true.

I would like for anywhere where you're not allowed a motorcycle helmet or other face covering for that to cover everyone, including religious covering. It feel safer as there are reasons for banning them. Although not a headscarf as they do hat's- that's just rims stop faces being visible to cameras!

As a society we have always been taught that some one covering their face is suspicious. It's not surprising we still feel that. There's a lot of reconditioning needed to get past it.

I have hearing problems, worse if I'm tired. A lot of deaf people lip read or use it, like me, to help understand what us being said. So covering mouths IS preventing communication even without going into body language.

A few years ago I read an account of someone who who a burka part time. I can remember her saying that it was great - when she had it on she didn't have to worry how she looked. This was held up as an example of modesty but to me it is just the opposite; that if she really didn't care how she looked she'd be happy to show herself without make up etc but instead she was hiding as she didn't look perfect.

I really don't know the answer. For some people I truly believe it is a choice and I can't object to that. For others there clearly is no choice and that is awful. But it's the middle group that I question. We see time and again on here people who have been brought up to believe strange things ate normal. From the outside some are incredible. But just as these people's boundaries are skewed so they accept abuse are some who think they should cover themselves victims of their family and community having too much influence? (Not suggesting abuse btw!). When people are told all their life that something is correct would they really question it or just carry on the status quo?

I hope that makes sense. It certainly isn't meant to be offensive- just late! If I have offended anyone I apologise.

Patriarchal tool of oppression, done so well women now praise it as a choice to wear it.

This exactly.

Also whoever commented that islam has become far more fundamentalist since the 1980s. Same is happening with evangelical christianity in the southern US (but people on MN generally think it is ok to take a pop at that)

I don't think it should be banned but I wish women didn't want to wear it. And I feel very much for the many women worldwide who are forced to wear it.

Sadly there are many women who like seeing themselves as second to men.

How do the men remain modestly covered? I was in Malta this Summer, and saw a lady in a Niquab, beside her, I presume was her husband, wearing a t shirt and shorts. The weather was hitting 38oc.

I was sweating in my shorts and cami top in the afternoon heat, she must have been very hot. I don't think men have to dress modestly as they do not have to worry about attracting women, or arousing them, it is only the women who have to cover up to prevent the arousal of men, or to make themselves less alluring to them.

As a Muslim I can tell you that I choose to wear what I want just as much as you do OP. No one forced us to wear the hijab no father, no husband and no brother. Honestly it makes me sad to think that people assume that I am oppressed just by looking at my clothing.
I met a group of nuns in Rome last year and honestly they were more covered up than me. I did not judge them one bit because I know that they have their reasons as to why they wear what they do and I have mine. In Islam there is no compulsion in religion. You either practice it or you don't, it's between you and God.

The hijab is a hair covering. Nuns cover their hair also and wear a habit but they don't cover their faces. You can identify them. You can smile at someone whilst wearing a hijab. People still know who you are.

In this country women wear the burqa if they want to, not because of any pressure. However, you don't see that many. I can't remember when I last did. Plenty of hijabs.

I accept whatever anyone chooses to wear, it's not my business.