When did we become ok with the burka?

[Banana8080]

In my childhood (80s90s) I remember being sad some Muslim women were pressured not to show their full faces in public ie become invisible. These days much more focus on a women right to choose aka wear the full vail, even those who are possible under pressure.

When/why did this change happen?

The way I see it, in this culture (UK) showing your face is the custom.
Cover your hair by all means - totally fine.
Cover your face - no. I am not at all comfortable . It is not Customary.

If I went to live in a Muslim country I would certainly study their customs and follow them, if I had an issue with their customs I wouldn't go there.

I expect the same from other cultures coming to live here. It is respectful and common sense to do so.

If you want to cover your face - don't come here, please. Choose somewhere that suits your culture. To try to impose your culture over mine is the height of bad manners, surely.

Years of conditioning? Most of the women who wear them their parents don't wear them. A lot of them their parents aren't even happy with their choice to wear them.

Listened and ignored and tried to deny women agency and infantalise them saying they don't know their own mind.

I can identify people wearing niqaab. Like if I see my friend on the street I know it's my friend even though their face is covered.

Why should my dress be compared to my husband's and why should a man's dress be seen as the standard to compare to?
I wear what I want and my husband wears what he wants. We don't discuss it between us what to wear each day, or how we should dress. When I started wearing hijab and abayah I didn't discuss it with anyone I just went shopping, bought it and put it on. The same way you would do with any article of clothing.

And then again we have people who don't wear niqaab telling women that do that they wear it so men won't be aroused. Even though the actual women who wear it don't state this as a reason.
We have accusations of conditioning and brainwashing due to communities although it's obvious that the parents and elders didn't and don't wear niqaab.

Men do have to cover up too. Just as I the West, there is a difference between the amount men and women have to cover. Just as there are women that choose not to wear hijab there are men that choose not to follow this requirement.
As for wearing fashionable clothes etc. Covering doesn't stop you doing this. There's definitely fashions and trends in Islamic outerwear that are followed by many. Designer abayahs etc. As well as the fact women dress how they like underneath. They just chose not to show everyone.

It's actually quite cool in loose flowy clothes. Look at any hot country and you will see people dress in loose flowing garments that doesn't expose their skin to the sun.

It's all very "white saviour".
Those poor Muslim women who can't understand how they have been brainwashed and are oppressed, we know what's better for them then they do, we know why they wear it better then they do.
You can't say all that and then still say you're listening to them and empowering them to have a voice.

And quoting groups of people who are anti Sunni Islam doesn't show anything except you are more likely to believe those that are anti Muslim then actual Muslims.

Now the "in Muslim countries" trope.

Erm has no one been to Turkey, Shark el Sheikh etc and worn a bikini? Muslim countries aren't homogenous. Some are anti niqaab and some are forced niqaab and everything inbetween.

And what is this about "coming" here. The women who wear it are mostly born here. As can be seen as it only happening in the last 20 years.
It's not those that came here in the 70s that are wearing it. It is the 2nd and 3rd generation who have been brought up believing in freedom of religion and religious practices that their society grants them.

Might as well say, it's legal here, if you don't like that choose somewhere else.

Bottom line is in Islam men and women are segregated.

That kills it for me. You can argue until the sodding cows come home that as a Muslim woman that its not a symbol of oppression, your choice, ad infinitum.

It's men's control over women.

And whilst I'm here :

I don’t think I even remember seeing Muslim women wearing veils back in the 90s.

^

No? You didn't live in East Lancashire then. My twelve year old school friend did.

Patriarchal tool of oppression, done so well women now praise it as a choice to wear it.

^
Spot on.

Once saw a woman at the Trafford Centre in a hijab : it was bright, fluorescent pink, and she had a face full of make up and high heels.

So she's modestly attracting attention? So many contradictions.

In Judaism and Sikhism men and women are segregated too. Go in to a gudwara or a synagogue.

Yes some Muslims chose to segregate.
Firstly Being seperate doesn't mean being unequal. Having women's only spaces does not equal inequality.
Secondly have you ever been to a Muslim wedding or did gathering? The majority aren't actually segregated.

Misogyny and patriarchy does exist in Islam, as it does everywhere else. And there are many Muslim women and men which are speaking out against this and trying to overcome these practices. Such as women's areas been seen as less important, abuse, etc. I'm not going to pretend Muslims are perfect.

However many of the women at the forefront of tackling these flawed concepts are covered women.
Covered women have their own agency.

Focusing on their dress and how they are brainwashed actually has the opposite effect. It makes it easy to ignore them when they speak up, as obviously they don't know their own mind.

And the same reasoning used here is used by misogynists and those who want to uphold the patriarchy to silence us.
Except then instead of being told we have been brainwashed by our Muslim communities, we are told we have been brainwashed by feminism and the West.

Express.co.uk can reveal shopkeepers in Blackburn, the British town with the third highest Muslim population, are enjoying a boom in sales.But, while their popularity in many Middle Eastern countries is on the wane the number of women wearing burkas and niqabs on the streets of British northern towns and cities and parts of London is increasing.A snap survey carried out by Express.co.uk in the Lancashire town of Blackburn, where 11 per cent of the population is Islamic, found around 30 per cent of muslim women completely covered their faces.

^

I've said it before and I'll say it again : it's a representation of your socio economical status, is wearing the veil. Blackburn is an incredibly poor town. Low levels of higher education. Bad healthcare, the poorest people in the UK.

Not difficult to find a link really.

Delphguelph, did she say she was wearing hijab to be modest or is that an assumption?
Did she say she was wearing hijab to not attract attention? Like I have explained there's a whole fashion and beauty hijab scene. Go on YouTube and you'll find many hijabi make up vlogs and hijab style tutorials.
This is the point. People wear these items of clothing for many reasons. Some may just like how it looks.

That's the thing though : I'd listen to a woman if she wasn't covered. To me it's a contradiction in terms.

I don't understand, what do you mean?

Here's an example m.facebook.com/TheSalafiFeminist/?locale2=en_GB

I actually really don't like the principles and ideology behind the burka (and other full body type coverings) but I recognise that is different from the day to day cultural lived experience for a very many women, and totally respect their right to wear it. I certainly don't have any right to tell them how to live or what to wear.

I find the idea that women should bear responsibility for men's sexual desire and behaviour pretty objectionable though.

Totally 100% agree with Enthusiasms from my experience it isn't a woman's choice, they may think it's their choice but tradition isn't choice.
It's madness that a woman should cover HERSELF because men can't control THEMSELVES. Once again the woman gets the blame! There's no place for it in England.
Oh and another thing, if the women love it so much why do they remove it on flights when they are out of middle eastern air zone? Hmmmm.
I loved walking around shopping malls in the Middle East, women covered from head to foot, with there husbands wearing Nike trainers, board shorts and designer t-shirts. It's fascinating to watch women eat wearing a full on burka, I will never understand it.

I'd say its a sign of a sick society if a woman feels she would be more comfortable appearing invisible

Wearing the burka is a choice in the same way that women getting botox is a choice

I agree OP - it symbolises the oppression of women and I can't comprehend why any woman would choose to wear it. It's the law in some countries that women wear it to help men control themselves - as if it's their responsibility. Places where women are also denied education. Women should be burning these garments, not wearing them.

Even worse, I've occasionally seen children wearing them. The fact that someone would think a child should cover themselves - the whole ethos behind it is so morally bankrupt.

I've got to be honest, I agree with the poster who said she wouldn't want her child being taught by a teacher wearing one, I wouldn't either, especially if it was a daughter! But I wouldn't want my child going to a religious school either.

I've no issue with people displaying their religious, but covering from head to foot seems an overwhelming symbol of oppression above anything else.

Religion even

Iran was heading to be a first world country if Ayatollah Khomeini hadn’t ousted the Shah.

The women of Iran had no choice if they were to remain in Iran over what they had to wear. Mandatory veiling came in almost over night. There was no choice and look where that got Iran.

Why don’t we have a dress code. If you go to ME countries you have to adhere to their dress code when on the streets. Why not here

I'm not okay with it (before people start shouting, I'm not white etc)

They aren't featured in the Quran, they're following the example of women who were travelling in the desert and didn't want to be raped/set upon by rogues

It's bullshit and a tool of oppression

In my mind when a woman is forced to wear a full veil, then society stopping her will not give her more freedom. It will give her less. She will not be allowed out of the house without it. She will be totally isolated and trapped in her home. She will vanish from our view and we'll think great, no more oppressed women, but in reality her life will be far worse. At least now she has her family's/husband's/father's 'permission' to be outside and can see life and how others interact and our normal. At home she has no chance. We have no idea how many women are not allowed to leave their homes due to oppression and I don't think we should add to that, however good our intention.