When did we become ok with the burka?

[Banana8080]

In my childhood (80s90s) I remember being sad some Muslim women were pressured not to show their full faces in public ie become invisible. These days much more focus on a women right to choose aka wear the full vail, even those who are possible under pressure.

When/why did this change happen?

It doesn't matter why someone has a preference for a particular style of clothing, religious or not. What is important here is this idea that women should be dictated to and told what to wear. We all have freedom of choice, or has that now been taken away?

women being forced to wear anything against their will - bad

banning women from wearing something is the same thing - also bad

and you mean the niqab btw

@Vapidothefirst I agree it’s definitely a cultural thing not a religious thing.

We recently went to Turkey on holiday. We saw 3 older ladies with their hair covered that was it.

Every other Turkish woman we encountered or saw didn’t even cover their hair.

www.bing.com/videos/search?q=what+not+to+say+to+niqab+wearing+women&view=detail&mid=098796CB737CBDAE627F098796CB737CBDAE627F&FORM=VIRE

I can only comment on my experience and that is as a woman who wears a niqab, it has not been a barrier for me personally. on the contrary it's been a conversation starter many times and allowed people to ask questions they've always wanted to but never had the chance. Mums in the playground laugh because they now recognise me by my walk, my eyes, my voice, my laugh and general demeanour. A couple have asked to try it out and I've obliged. It is a personal expression of my religion, just for me and I wear it because I like it. I wouldn't ask or expect anyone else to wear it, including my daughters and I certainly wouldn't expect anyone else to ask me to remove it just because they don't like it.

It sets the standard of a “good Muslim woman” and inadvertently puts pressure on other women to be as good as the burka wearers

No it's not. That is entirely based on what YOU think and perceive. And not from personal experience.

Sit in on a conversation from true experience.

'Woah, you're wearing Burkha?!'

'Yeah!.'

'Let me try it!', 'hmmm it doesn't suit me, I look fat'

'Awe no, you're stick thin!'

'Are you kidding me?, I've eaten like a horse these past few days. I'm thinking of hitting the gym'

'Oh what gym? I might join one, where were you thinking?'

'The one on so and so Road, but I'll need to get the bus'

'Oh shall we join together and we can drive'

The point is, it's not as oppressive as you think. You speak of a pressure that really isn't there. And that's based on real life experience and not the assumption you have made.

I dress in jeans and a top mostly. I have never been made to feel like the negatives you describe a burka wearing Muslim person is supposed to inadvertently make me feel. That's not true. Again, that comes from a real life experience as opposed to your assumption.

We are three best friends. One of which is covered, two of us who wear whatever we want. No one in the group feels inadequate. We tend to talk about child birth and what stage our children are at.

Those oppressive feelings you're talking about? Don't happen. And again, based on REAL LIFE experience as opposed assumption.

If it's not oppressive why don't men wear it?

The link above is to a BBC 3 quick prog - Niqab wearing women talking about it - it' full of humour and it addresses a lot of your points OP - take a look!

FizzyWizxy my dh is Muslim and it's certainly the case in our experience that women feel very much under pressure to wear the veil when their peers start to. I know nothing about the burka though, as no one in my dh's family or social circle would have anything to do with that.

In the UK - well I'm sure some women and girls are pressured to wear it (family, society) and with others it's a choice. Luckily we live in a society where you can genuinely choose.

Women have the choice to wear what they want .. if she wants to cover herself then so be it .. if she chooses not to then so be it .. it's her body.. her choice
Niqab also doesn't prevent you from integrating and talking to someone... I understand why some may not like it.. I used to wear it and I had no issues talking to people however I did receive abuse and for that I made the choice to remove it .. I may well one day decide to wear it again but with the way things are going it doesn't seem that way
Just want clear a few things up.. hijab is not the head covering.. hijab has a greater meaning. It is to cover everything but the hands and the face and also includes manners and character
Abaya is the garment which covers the body
And the head covering is just a head scarf
In terms of niqab it is something which is prescribed in Islam.. however there is a difference of opinion among the scholars as to whether it is obligatory

So we should be protecting the rights of women who choose to wear a face covering at the expense of those women who are pressured to wear it? Or are you denying that there are women who are pressured to wear it?

FWIW I’m talking about full face coverings, so only eyes showing. I have no issue with women wishing to cover the rest of their bodies from head to toe.

OP: have you ever spoken to a woman in a burka, hijab or niqab ?

Vapidothefirst we should be supporting both sides. It doesn't have to be one or the other. Promoting free choice is just that. Choice to wear it or choice to not and if as I said before a woman is in a situation where she is forcibly wearing it, supporting and enabling her to leave that situation so that she can have...wait for it...free choice to wear what she wants.

Women don’t have the option to wear what they want that’s rubbish

You could not walk around in public in a see through thong and tasseled bra it would be considered indecent

We have allowed an untra extreme form of Islam that is repressive and misogynistic (and anti Semitic) to become influential and it goes agains western values and creates divisions in society

Yet too many are happy to over look that so women can choose to wear fabric chains the whole idea of totally covering is to keep females invisible to have no identity it was designed to transport woman and girls to market to be sold and is still used in this way

Would you support woman wanting to have FGM (and some women make that choice) or living as the second, third or forth wife that some Islamic Imam’s claim is right for Muslim women I doubt it so why support this

The niqab or burka (which restricts movement so women can only look forward so they can be further controlled) has no place in a progressive society

Google Afghanistan in the 60s and 70s and see how lots of women wore mini skirts etc and freely went to school. Like it or not the burka Is a sign of oppression.

I saw toddler wearing a headscarf down to her waist a few weeks ago in Bristol. I generally don't agree though with parents pushing their religious beliefs on children.

Toddlers are the same, no matter what religion they are and there's every chance that this little girl simply kicked off because she wanted to be like Mummy.

Hello @MissEliza, sorry to hear that you're experiencing this.

As stated on my OP it's my personal experience based on the area in which I was brought up in which had a dense Muslim population. Which I think is relevant to this conversation.

Firstly, what one FEELS is an emotion that is based on their understanding of a situation and their insecurity. Unless someone is saying it directly, then the feeling is a personal battle they need to over come.

The school I send my daughter to has parents who are pristinely dressed. One mother felt she was shoddy and trampy because she chose to wear sweats on the school run. None of the other parents have ever told her this, it's just what she feels based on her own insecurity about what people think and not what people have said.
I wear whatever the hell I want because I need to get my daughter to school and then come home and do the house work and want to feel comfortable. I don't feel trampy I just have things to do.

That said it would be nice to see a change. Has your DH or people you're around had the conversation? How do you think they can move forward from this feeling of pressure. Unless this issue is addressed directly then there will be no solution.

Like I said in my OP we addressed the situation and moved forward.

I support women in making their own informed choices without being pressured, threatened or forced into anything.
That's what I support.

Does anybody else find the kilt intimidating and disgusting. The very thought if it makes me feel sick.

Who says we have become ok with the burka? If there was a vote I think it would be borderline regarding whether it would get banned. A lot of people find it oppressive and contrary to Western values.

poppy no.

I find the values it stands for abhorrent, its offensive and should be banned. Women should not have their faces covered up lest they lead men on. It has absolutely no place in a civilised society.

^ This

I think so many people are scared to say this though for fear of being labelled a racist. Yet the values behind the covering of women are literally revolting - just because some of the women choose to comply with this misogyny doesn't make it something that a progressive and free society should support.

To answer your question op, I think it became ok for women to wear the burka when they chose when we realized it was their choice and stopped being “sad” because we assumed they were forced to wear it. If you don’t want to dress like that fine, and of course no one should be forced to wear it. But it’s up to others to choose what they want to wear and no one should be forced not to wear it either.