When did we become ok with the burka?

[Banana8080]

In my childhood (80s90s) I remember being sad some Muslim women were pressured not to show their full faces in public ie become invisible. These days much more focus on a women right to choose aka wear the full vail, even those who are possible under pressure.

When/why did this change happen?

The niqab or burka (which restricts movement so women can only look forward so they can be further controlled) has no place in a progressive society

The wearing of such garments undoubtedly restricts movement, ability to drive, employment opportunities and ability to mix, converse and meaningfully contribute to society. It narrows womens' vision - in every meaning of the word. Its intention is to 'contain' and limit women.

As for the question ~ is it a woman's right to wear it, that is another issue. But why any woman would want to wear such an inhibiting shroud like garment that is not a requirement of their religion is odd in itself.

A poster up thread asked if someone had spoken to anyone wearing such garments. Why and how do you converse meaningfully with someone who deliberately does not want you to see their face or expressions. It's like talking to someone who turns their back on you.

I've noticed too that burka, niqab wearing women are often accompanied by guys in full up to the minute, temperature appropriate clothing! Odd that.

And please don't say such garments aren't worn in Britain ~ they are. Hop along to Dewsbury, Bradford or Burnley. It's a growing trend.

The 'freedom to choose' thing is total bollocks btw. Muslim women have to demonstrate their commitment to Islam for many reasons and in many ways, otherwise they will be committing apostasy and I think we all know the punishment for that !

This is not a free choice and to relate it to the free choices that non-Muslim women in the UK have with regards to their clothing is pretty naive, if not insulting

How can it be a growing trend?

The only time I’ve spoken to burqa-wearing women was when travelling out of the U.K. The conversations happened when we were in female spaces and so they weren’t wearing the full covering. I think it’s quite difficult to converse with someone wearing a burqa. Certainly felt it restricted our public conversations. And because of the loss of a fair bit of body language, gestures etc you find yourself travelling in quite tightly knit groups. And the contrast being between ‘out’ in a burka vs comfortable at home is quite striking. I’ve not known a woman to keep it on when in a female space, because she prefers it.

It does seem like a restrictive garment to me, however, it’s not bad for you in the way very high heels are - I used to work with a woman’s who tottered around in high heels and I frequently found myself internally saying ‘why?’ because they aren’t just restrictive but also painful! But restrictive isn’t an argument to ban IMO. All clothing is restrictive when you think about it.

Would like to ask posters on here gushing about the burka, would you be happy if , say 75% of women in the uk wore it and hid their identity at all times in public? Or is the burka just having a cool moment as it's a minority thing?

I don’t think a vote would be borderline at all. I think it would be majority for a ban.

What does worry me is what would become of try women who are forced to wear it if it was banned? Would they become prisoners in their own homes?

As I understand it, it's not required by Islam. However it's up to the individual what she wants to do and it's nobody else's business.

I’m not ok with it at all and you will find that many people aren’t - how can a woman be a truly participating member of society if we have no idea of who is under all that cloth ? Normal human interaction takes place when there are facial cues, denied when barely the eyes are visible. Personal choice ? Really ? Who would freely choose that isolation from the rest of the wider community unless there were constant and more insidious pressures upon them.

I guess it's how much actual choice the woman or girl has and what other beliefs, attitudes or habits will accompany it - speaking to men, shaking hands, travelling alone, whatever.

I don’t have any strong feelings either way but I do wonder why women choose to wear a garment that is a symbol of oppression for many of their fellow Muslim sisters in other parts of the world where they don’t get to choose.
Would you be so quick to choose to wear it if your daughters, sisters, mothers were forced to wear it just by virtue of where they live? Or do you accept they should wear it any way and get over their objections?
Not being toady but I would like a western Muslim woman who has made that choice for their view.

Can women really wear what they want? Can a woman walk down the high street naked if they are a fan of nudism or wear a bikini? What about wearing a Nazi uniform or a KluKluxKlan outfit? Surely they'd be arrested for indecency/offense?

Express.co.uk can reveal shopkeepers in Blackburn, the British town with the third highest Muslim population, are enjoying a boom in sales.But, while their popularity in many Middle Eastern countries is on the wane the number of women wearing burkas and niqabs on the streets of British northern towns and cities and parts of London is increasing.A snap survey carried out by Express.co.uk in the Lancashire town of Blackburn, where 11 per cent of the population is Islamic, found around 30 per cent of muslim women completely covered their faces. Exact figures are hard to establish because many burkas are sold door-to-door, but Nadeem Siddiqui who runs the Hijab Centre in Blackburn and is the town’s biggest burka supplier said: “I'm selling more burkas and niqabs than I used to, no question.“I used to sell one or two burkas a month, now I sell about that in a week, so sales are clearly up.”

Are you a reporter for the daily fail op?
Post twatty comment about ‘in my day’, sit back and let the article write itself.

So really it isn't much to do with women's rights? Or oppression or anything along those lines.

It's to do with what you are personally comfortable with and what you want to happen. What you believe constitutes what society should be like. So it's about you.

You don't like it therefore you do not want it. Choosing points which strengthen your argument based on assumption and ignoring examples of real life.

I mean let's call a spade a spade.

That's what I call oppression.

It seems that you are threatened by something you do not understand and do not wish to understand. You just want it gone regardless of whether women want it or not.

I re iterate . You want it gone regardless of whether women want it or not.

Your argument lies within what you want as opposed to what the people who choose to wear it want.

I wear hijab and abayah. I have many friends that wear niqaab. I've never felt pressurised to wear niqaab. None of my friends have ever spoken to me about how I should wear it, as they are fully aware I am capable of making my own choices.

I fully support women's right to wear niqaab. I don't agree that it makes them unable to function in society or interact or whatever.
Some of my friends are teachers and yes they take their niqaab of when teaching, even if male inspectors etc are there.
Healthwatch in my borough has an outreach worker that wears niqaab, it didn't stop her from interacting with people and getting their views.
I know other women that wear niqaab that are in all sorts of professions, from running bakeries to charity workers, to solicitors.

I don't understand why it can be viewed as wearing a symbol of oppression as in some countries you have to wear it. I mean in some countries you're not allowed to wear it so surely wearing it in solidarity with those who are forced not to wear it makes just as much sense as not wearing it in support of those who are forced to wear it.

Also why is it a symbol of oppression? Who decided this? Not the women in the UK who are wearing it. For them it is a symbol of freedom.

Also you can't claim to want to liberate a section of society while simultaneously denying and ignoring their voice.

I am not ok with it. I think it should be banned and I support the bans in France, Belgium, Denmark and The Netherlands.

From The Independent
I am a Shia Muslim and I abhor the burqa. I am offended by the unchallenged presumption that women covering their heads and bodies and now faces are more pious and true than am I.Muslim women who show their hair are becoming an endangered species. We must fight back. Our covered-up sisters do not understand history, politics, struggles, their faith or equality. As Rahila Gupta, campaigner against domestic violence, writes: "This is a cloth that comes soaked in blood. We cannot debate the burqa or the hijab without reference to women in Iran, Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia where the wearing of it are heavily policed and any slippages are met with violence." What happened to solidarity?Violent enforcement is evident in Britain too. A fully veiled young chemistry graduate once came to my home, her body covered in cuts, tears, bites, bruises, all happily hidden from view. Security and social cohesion are all threatened by this trend – which is growing exponentially.As for the pathetic excuse that covering up protects women from male lasciviousness – it hasn't stopped rapists in the most conservative Muslim nations. And what a slur on decent Muslim men, portrayed as sexual predators who cannot look upon a woman without wanting her. We communicate with each other with our faces. To deny that interaction is to deny our shared humanity. Unreasonable community or nationalistic expectations disconnect essential bonds. Governments should not accommodate such demands. Naturists can't parade on the streets, go to school or take up jobs unless they cover their nakedness. Why should burqaed women get special consideration? Their veils are walls, keeping them in and us out. We need an urgent, open conversation on this issue – which divides the Muslim intelligensia as much as the nation. Our social environment, fragile and precious, matters more than choice and custom should to British Muslims. If we don't compromise for the greater good, the future looks only more bitter and bleak. Saying so doesn't make me the enemy of my people

Let's ignore all the women who tell us why they chose to wear niqaab and instead believe the reasons of those who don't wear it.

Empowerment?

Why should women wear them? I hear some say it’s part of their religion? What do the men wear in your religion? That to me is not fair. Yes it’s patriachial. I don’t believe it to be just “religion”. It’s now years worth of oppresion and considered normal. That’s why it’s worn.

We have listened

It doesn’t mean I am going to agree with the growing influence of a conservative form of Islam

Shall I demand your nipples are available to the casual observer? What reason do you have for covering them?

Comparing nipples with being able to see a person's face is a ridiculous argument. Made even more ridiculous if that is the best you can come up with in response to the articulate and reasoned argument posed by the Shia Muslim woman.

I don't feel like it's relevant whether I am OK with it or not. I am a white non muslim. I am not qualified to have an opinion. If Islamic women's groups and communities speak out against it then I believe we live in a country where they will be heard. If people like me speak out about we will rightly be told we don't know what we are talking about. I have heard arguments on both sides of this. To some it is a symbol of oppression to others a symbol of faith.

However I do believe that there are plenty of groups trying to eliminate any kind of mistreatment and oppression of women and girls in all cultures. I don't think banning the Burka will suddenly stop oppression.