When did we become ok with the burka?

[Banana8080]

In my childhood (80s90s) I remember being sad some Muslim women were pressured not to show their full faces in public ie become invisible. These days much more focus on a women right to choose aka wear the full vail, even those who are possible under pressure.

When/why did this change happen?

The idea of rejecting the west isn't coming from the women though. It's coming from other people's interpretations and assumptions. I don't agree that it means you don't have an identity as the women I know defintely do have an identity.

At the very least it signifies that you follow an extremely conservative branch of Sunni Islam and that is usually going to be Wahabism or Hanafi, which do very explicitly reject the West and Western values and association with non-Muslims. So yes, you can be fairly certain a woman wearing a niqab or burka will share those views or have a husband/father who does because it is an outward expression of following those belief systems. It’s not a guess, there are valid and solid reasons to think that is correct. We were talking about women who chose to wear it themselves, so leaving aside women who are forced to wear it, the woman who choose to wear it almost certainly share those values.

A higher number identify as Catholic but don’t practice. But it’s still lower than the number who don’t believe in anything.

So the reasons for a woman willingly wearing a burka or Nijab are to stop men lusting/looking at them, being closer to god and sticking 2 fingers up at the West?

Niqab sorry

@ Naliq if your sister is walking in a street in London wearing niqab or burka how would you recognise her?

Still it’s a country that has population with mixed religious beliefs and keeps state and religion separate

It’s also a country with appalling race relations and a lot of racism. Much worse than here. Plus although everybody lines up to bash the British Empire today there seems to be a lot of collective amnesia about how awful the French Empire in Africa (particularly in Algeria) and what an awful mess and fight came out of it’s break up and the huge amount of bitterness that still remains Lots of French people were killed in Algeria and most of the rest fled for their lives and lots of Algerians were killed in France, their dead bodies were floating down the Seine.

France is really, really not an example to be following for a peaceful mixed religion and race society. Look at the amount of terror attacks and the popularity of Le Pen.

“The point is there are just as many places that force women to not cover, as there are that force them to cover.”

Nailak - this is a very bizarre argument tbh. You talk as if it’s as natural to cover your face as to not - when obviously this isn’t the case at all! If religion / men hadn’t come up with this concept if women covering due to their own insecurities around female sexuality / control / ownership, it would no more occur to anyone to cover their hair or face than to go out with a bunch of bananas balanced in your head. The whole concept of covering your face is totally arbitrary. If more men of yore had had foot fetishes, maybe we’d all be required to wear some kind of moon boots when out and about, to signal that our virtue and that our worth is in our beauty (in this case the feet, not hair or face).

Cinering your fave is not a natural state of affairs for anyone because there is no point.

So the reasons for a woman willingly wearing a burka or Nijab are to stop men lusting/looking at them, being closer to god and sticking 2 fingers up at the West?

Probably a bit of both. You can’t really look at it in isolation though. Women who are Shi’a Muslim or who follow the Sufi branch don’t wear the niqab or burka. When a woman wears one it’s symbolic of the type of Islam she follows and the wider belief system which she follows in the rest of her life too. These strict forms of Islam aren’t pick and mix so a woman who wears one is also going to be following the same belief system in other areas of her life too like who she chooses to associate with, and these belief systems do not encourage unnecessary mixing with non-Muslims, certainly not for women, and in many cases are downright hostile towards non-Muslims.

I am aware of the racism in France through my ex she experiences (Muslim)

But the state and religion are separate that is why he hijab is banned in public schools that is not the same as being forced to wear it as the ban is for all religions

This is also the case in other countries down Muslim countries though things are changing with religious groups having more of an influence which I can’t see as a thing

As a positive move or a good thing for women in particular

The rights of women are far better in progressive Muslims countries that have or have to some degree separation from state and religion

And even more downright hostile to other types muslim.

Who are the 'We' who are/are not OK with the Burka?

I don't believe for a moment that the 'Burka Police' care about the rights of women who wear it.

It's either wanting to 'unclothe' Burka wearing women, or in xenophobic fashion force them to be of the 'accepted' western view.

There are women who aren't compelled in any way to wear the Burka, but choose to wear it. Their voices are completely ignored by those with an agenda which isn't necessarily womens' rights at all.

Its control, by people who imagine their form of control is better than another's when both are bad.

“The point is there are just as many places that force women to not cover, as there are that force them to cover.”

All I can think of is a few European countries that ban full face coverings and France which bans coverings in public life like some workplaces and schools. I don’t think that even comes close to the number of places that force covering.

Also I am tired of all the beating around the bush about why women wear hijab or veil. I have many neighbours from the UAE or Saudi. My DC are at school with their DC. We have been in their homes where they wear all the designer clothing and make up just like anyone else, even though outside it’s a different story. One lady told me that the niqab is a mark of respect to her husband because as his wife she is his property and therefore not to be viewed by the general public. To show her face in public would be to insult and shame him and her family. It’s like the equivalent for her as me walking down the road in my lingerie or something because I guess DH would not be too happy about that! This is how they see it. They are educated women who have lived in many places around the world, but they feel as if they can’t be visible in public. They go about in their groups in areas where they feel safe eg Harrods.

And even more downright hostile to other types muslim.

Yes, that’s a very good point. It is something I wish people understood a bit better. A lot of people seem to think Islam is just one big indistinguishable body and don’t realise that there are a lot of people following types of Islam that have nothing to do with the niqab or violent forms of jihad.

Very interesting Geraldine170

I still can only see the burka and nijab we’re designed for 2 reasons so women all look the same, identity hidden, shameful to be a woman and no voice, i’m willing to be pursuaded otherwise but that’s all I can see it’s use for?

They are educated women who have lived in many places around the world. I’m not sure how much living all around the world would benefit you if you don’t interact with the communities around you. Going to Harrods is hardly going to give you a well rounded view and sophisticated view of the UK is it? Again, saying ‘My friend wears it because she is her husband’s property is a huge oversimplification which ignores that this clothing is just part of a wider belief system. I’m also a bit suspicious of the idea that women who cover have cosy little uncovered chats with western women in their homes because the whole thing is so tied up with notions of Purdah which certainly wouldn’t be encouraging that sort of thing and the wider belief systems people who wear these garments follow wouldn’t either. Which also brings us back to your well educated comment; if her and her family follow one of the ultra conservative forms of Islam that education probably consisted of watching a TV broadcast of lectures in a different room, occasionally being allowed to telephone in questions and only allowed into a limited women’s library. They would only have had that education with the permission of their male guardian and it’s rare they’re allowed to use that education at work.

I still can only see the burka and nijab we’re designed for 2 reasons so women all look the same, identity hidden, shameful to be a woman and no voice, i’m willing to be pursuaded otherwise but that’s all I can see it’s use for?

I think that all those things were probably factors in its origins. But like most things that have been around for a long time it’s picked up an awful lot more signicance and meaning on its journey and it’s now a lot more complicated.

Except for spoons. Spoons have been around forever and they’re still meaningless. You’re always safe with a nice spoon.

And there is the 'burka police' or rather the jumped up snotty youth of the moral police who judge 'bad hijab' and hassle women, arrest them, sometimes beat them up... And if they are really unlucky, are executed for crimes against Islam and being immoral.

Now, I think that Islam came into being for good intentions - stop warring tribes knocking seven bells out of each other, kidnapping women and girls (think of the gate of the Yazidi and you get an insight), to make womens place more secure than it has been - even a bit more than in the West at that time (ability to earn and own property/money, ability to divorce husband), even a misguided belief in having more than one wife (so widows and single women could belongto a household and the protection it afforded from other tribes - marrying them was just a perk I guess. Why they couldn't adopt them as daughters, nannies, honorary grandmas, I don't know). Even the food rules were more health and safety of the day, and giving to the poor/sick as a matter of course is absolutely a good thing, especially in a time/place of no government or laws to support them.

But local culture and male oppression reared it's ugly head, and this has caused a hell of a lot of wilful misinterpretation and bending of the laws.

Oil, land, ancient tribal differences, jealousy, shia/sunni split etc have encouraged men to 'reveal' justification for violence and war in the scriptures.

My ex dh (not ex she) .... suffered racism in France (and here less so)

I have never implied that the French do not have issues with racism I stated that the reason why the hijab is banned in schools

I am not sure the rise of the right wing in France and in the western world can be blamed on secularism that doesn’t mean intolerance it’s quite straight forward state and personal beliefs are separate

Something I do support less influence on religion in our everyday lives always will improve the lives for the majority of women

Something I do support less influence on religion in our everyday lives always will improve the lives for the majority of women

Well that assumes that all women have the same idea of what an ‘improved’ life is and that it is the same as yours. I’m not sure women who can’t work or are pulled out of school in France because they can’t wear a hijab would necessarily agree with you that their lives had improved. I’m not convinced that enforced secularism is any better than enforced religion, it’s still forcing people to follow state rules instead of their own free will. I’m generally suspicious of the current trend that every social problem can be solved by legislation and the government exercising more control over what we eat and think and say and do anyway. I don’t want the government doing it to me so I’m certainly not going to start arguing that they should be doing it people who do things I personally dislike like niqab wearing.

Put it this way. I personally feel quite morally justified in refusing to visit places which would require me to cover up because I come from a country which allows women to cover if they want. If we start telling women that they can’t cover, we lose that moral high ground and have to accept that governments have the right to tell women what they can and can’t wear because we do it too. We can’t complain they are wrong for telling women what to wear if we do the same.

I am not sure the rise of the right wing in France and in the western world can be blamed on secularism

No, it’s a lot more complicated than that. But the school ban was started in 2004, and although it covered all religious symbols, if people perceive that laws are being brought in which have a heavier punitive effect on them and their community they are going to start feeling like they’re being singled out and persecuted and this does tend to provoke a reaction. Not that I’m saying that’s justified but it’s risky.

There are a lot of other factors involved too. But suggesting following anything France’s management of race relations is a baaad, baaad idea.

Domestic violence being a crime in all circumstances, rights to the use of contraception and abortion, rights to divorce, rights to ownship of property, rights for a married women to say no to sex, biogomy outlawed

Allow religion to have more influence women would absolutely suffer the most has any country got the balance right o doubt it and never will bget cause people’s opinions differ

The hijab is banned in certain buildings is because French law bans all religious wear in public buildings this hasn’t been an issue until quite recently and it’s for all religions and both sexes

We don’t have freedom of religious practice something I am very grateful for

Why they couldn't adopt them as daughters, nannies, honorary grandmas, I don't know

I think because they are unrelated women if they were living in the house of a non relative male they would be assumed to be having sex with him anyway which would make them concubines meaning they lost status and honour anyway and were also sinning. I think marriage was the only way to avoid that.