When did we become ok with the burka?

[Banana8080]

In my childhood (80s90s) I remember being sad some Muslim women were pressured not to show their full faces in public ie become invisible. These days much more focus on a women right to choose aka wear the full vail, even those who are possible under pressure.

When/why did this change happen?

Hotels catering for conservative Muslim families are becoming big business. Some are even providing separated swimming pools with a large screen like divide so women can swim without being subjected to the unwanted gaze of a man.

I don’t disagree that a cultural enforcement of women being covered up is a negative thing, I just find it ugly that it’s never western constraints of performing femininity - and some are fairly life-limiting by any standards - that some women adhere to slavishly, that are held up for this bemused form of questioning.

Nailak how does it feel to wear the burka? 😉

@ Havaina because that is what we have been discussing the last 18 pages. We have women on here saying they would be proud it their daughters wore it? How in the Uk more young people are choosing to wear it. We’re not just talking about the burka but also the niqab which I see quite a few women wearing. I have never seen a woman in niqab riding a bike or dog walking? To say it doesn’t stop you doing certain daily activities is wrong.

I’m not ok with this item of clothing & dislike it, that’s my choice & opinion. Whilst (some) woman are free to wear this garment I’m free not to like it

Segregating men and women is a dangerous game as one group will have more privileges than the other. We are all human beings at the end of the day, we should all be equal in any religion but that doesn’t happen because religion was written by men.

Every time I see a post or article about why x, y or z is great for women I always wonder why if it’s so brilliant the men aren’t doing it.

During the heat of this summer what was it like to cover up instead of shedding clothes to keep cool.

I was in an area of Europe where it reached 50degrees. There were people (I presume women you can never tell) and young girls either fully covered up or just with their face showing walking around with their husbands and brothers in shorts and t shirts.

The ones with just their face showing were clearly in distress. I saw a little girl trying to remove her head covering and being told off and it was put straight back on. She looked about 2 years old

Why would you wear such a garment?

It has crossed my mind it is some sort of S&M type lifestyle.

@gin96
Covered women I know cycle, horse ride and walk their dogs. I really dont understand how covering stops women from doing these things. I've never seen a woman in the burka In the UK.

Again having female only spaces doesn't mean inequality.

@bustergonad I don't cover my face.
I wear abayah and hijab. Sometimes I wear make up, sometimes I don't, sometimes I wear high heels, sometimes I don't.
In my teens and early twenties, yes I did used to wear mini skirts and go clubbing all the time.
When I chose to wear it I didn't discuss it with anyone, including my husband. The way I saw it is that what I chose to wear and my relationship with God is not really any of anyone else's business or something that requires a discussion.
That was over 10 years ago now.

How does it feel. Erm after 10 years it just feels normal. But at the beginning it felt liberating. To be away from the demands and ideals of how women should look in this society. From the people I interacted with on the streets and on a day to day basis I felt like more importance was being put on my words rather then my appearance.
The kind of attitudes on this thread are ones I rarely encounter in real life.

However I also remember for the first time in my life feeling that I was being made other.
This didn't come from me, I felt as British and as integrated as I always had been. My belonging to the society and Britishness was something that I had never questioned as it was an integral part of my identity that I never had cause to question. But then I remember watching newsnight and being baffled at how covered women were being spoken about and shouting at the T.V. "But I'm still the same person".
My choice of dress was never intended as a political act. It was the media and politicians who made it political, started making me feel other and seperate from society, made me have to defend myself and become political.

Also one of my husband's nieces wore niqaab for a while. Her Mum and aunties didnt wear even hijaab. Her family wasn't supportive. Her dad told her, " do you think you're that beautiful that you need to cover your face?" But she chose to try it. After a while she decided it wasn't for her.

Even my Muslim family friends, from Muslim countries I have known from a child don't agree with my decision to cover. In my experience many families don't agree with their children covering, believing it affects their marriage prospects and so on.

I'm sure some people experience pressure to cover. Many also experience pressure not to.

@Mandarine we cannot dictate how others choose to interpret their religion.
I don't wear niqaab, but I understand some interpret the word jilbaab in the Quran to refer to a covering that includes the face. I understand there's difference of opinion on "what is apparent" and "places of adornment" and so on.
I also understand that some people prat differently, have different methods for working out fajr time and so on.

Just because I believe and follow one thing doesn't mean I cannot accept a plurality of interpretation.

In fact not accepting differences of opinions and insisting your way is the only right way I would say is the definition of fundamentalism and extremism.

I was asking how women wearing a burka crawl in tiny hot spaces whilst doing something like boarding a loft out or tiling a roof.
I got answered that walking over the O2 is comparable

I don’t think walking a dog or horse riding, and cycling, are comparable either.
Although given the lack of vision and with your ears covered, the impaired hearing I would have thought cycling and horse riding would be very dangerous and you would be a danger not only to yourself but the horse and other road users

Some pictures of local cycling clubs.

How do you hear traffic if you have your ears covered?

@OliversMumsArmy

Yes there are some things that you might find it hard to do.
I already said If you choose to do these things then you can choose not to wear niqaab or abayah.
I'm not sure why That Is a hard concept.

Just like you wouldn't wear high heels if you were a roofer, you would choose appropriate clothing. That doesn't mean that no one should wear high heels.
That makes no sense.

Erm I can hear perfectly well through my hijab, Its not really any different from wearing a good or a wooly hat now is it?
You're being a bit ridiculous.

I became o.k with the Burka the same time I became o.k with nuns wearing habits.....

No one gets rabid at the thought of nuns wearing habits that can cover almost their entire bodies because of their religious beliefs (sometimes in a very restrictive manner).

But everyone runs around like their hair is on fire because some women are choosing to cover their bodies for a religious belief that isn't based on Christianity!!

You never seem to get posts on "When did we become o.k with nuns wearing habits?"

I am a bit deaf, not ridiculous, so any sort of extra blocking to my ears is a hindrance.

I don’t own a woolly hat, The only hat I own is a hard hat for work.

I have a friend who wears a burka and I ask her to remove it when she talks to me as I do rely on lips and facial expressions to follow the conversation.

Otherwise I am straining to understand what she is saying.

Are you sure a woman would be allowed to wear appropriate clothing.

If so why did I see so many women and children covered from head to toe in 50 degree heat. Surely that wasn’t appropriate clothing.

Having seen a little girl try to remove her head covering and it is put back on her I don’t think for a lot of women they have the freedom to choose

But nuns don’t cover their entire body. You can still see their faces

You never seem to get posts on "When did we become o.k with nuns wearing habits?"

Actually, quite a lot of Vatican 2 was about getting rid of traditional nuns' habits as they were seen as a barrier to the modern world. Thus many orders chose to adjust their habits to include a simple veil without wimple or coif, knee-length skirt suits and sensible shoes worn with ordinary tights. The whole complicated, medieval habit was swept away and sisters joined the modern world. Many nuns don't wear a habit at all these days; only the most traditional enclosed orders keep the traditional encumbering clothing.

The thing I find most difficult with the face-covering Islamic clothing options is that if you chose to wear one you are complicit in eradicating and hiding your sisters who are forced to wear such things. If I see a woman in a face-hiding outfit, I don't know if it's her own choice or not. So, if you do have that choice be thankful and please choose not to wear it, then there will be no confusion: a woman or small child in burqa or other face covering is doing it under pressure not from free choice. Please chose not to be complicit in the oppression of other women.

You never seem to get posts on "When did we become o.k with nuns wearing habits?"

Because that is comparing apples with something which isn't even another organic matter let alone an orange.

Nuns' habits don't cover their faces. Most nuns these days don't even wear habits going out in everyday life. Becoming a nun is a vocation involving a serious commitment made by the woman herself.

@OliversMumsArmy

You are a little bit deaf.
So when you see someone in the street with a hood or a hat do you wonder how they can hear the traffic or be safe?
Or is that wonder just saved for Muslim women?

It is ridiculous to ask how they can hear traffic when the majority of people can hear fine through a hat or a scarf.

I also can't comment on what would be allowed in random other countries because I have never lived there. However as I have explained earlier, it is actually cooler wearing loose flowy clothes. In hot weather women can wear just their underwear (or not if they liked) and an abayah on top And it is cool.

@gerdaloveslili
How is not wearing it to not be complicit in the oppression of women who are forced to wear it, any different from wearing it to not be complicit in the oppression of women who are forced not to wear it?

Most nuns don't wear the habit any more do they, but then again we can't really compare the two. Nuns are a religious group, not representative of catholic females.

OP are you talking about the hijab? I'm not 'ok' with it but generally it's none of my business. Incidentally all I remember seeing as a kid in the 80's and 90's was couples walking around in ripped jeans, hands in each other's back pockets with a leather jacket slung over the shoulder. That always used to make me smile

Nuns choose to become nuns, nuns are not born into such a life and are not just expected to be nuns.

Sorry niqab I meant. Not hijab.