When did we become ok with the burka?

[Banana8080]

In my childhood (80s90s) I remember being sad some Muslim women were pressured not to show their full faces in public ie become invisible. These days much more focus on a women right to choose aka wear the full vail, even those who are possible under pressure.

When/why did this change happen?

Presumably nuns are to blame for all the mysogyny in the Catholic Church too.

How is not wearing it to not be complicit in the oppression of women who are forced to wear it, any different from wearing it to not be complicit in the oppression of women who are forced not to wear it?

Well d'uh! Now you're just being either dim or goady aren't you?

If you chose to wear a face-covering, medieval item of clothing that is seen as oppressive in many places and enforced by the authorities in many other places and you really don't have to. You personally have chosen to hide, mask and oppress other women who don't have the choice not to wear it.

You don't gain brownie points from g*d by wearing it, you just muddy the waters by saying you're wearing it through choice, so how do we know that other women (and increasingly tiny girls) aren't also wearing it through choice rather than oppression?

Your choice. Your choice to oppress and camouflage your sisters in religion who DON'T CHOOSE to wear it but are forced to. You could choose NOT to wear it couldn't you? You could chose to make those females who are forced to or feel obliged to wear it obvious. Just by the simple act of choosing NOT to wear it.

If I choose not to wear hijab where in some places women are forced not to wear it, and denied their freedom of religion, have I then masked the oppression of other women who are forced not to wear it?

Some people are forced not to get married. Shall we all not get married as marriage is also a medieval Institution, we won't be getting brownie points, and those who are forced in to it Won t be camouflaged?

We don’t have freedom of religion here

Thankfully

We are a progressive society hopefully one day we shall move completely to be a secular society

Progression and religion do not always go hand in hand we have laws that protect us from that

Thankfully

If I choose not to wear hijab

Aha! You're having comprehension issues. I was quite clearly talking about FACE-COVERING clothing. Not your right wear a scarf or hijab.

Same principle applies.
As I was referring to myself and I don't wear niqaab I spoke of my choice to wear hijab.

*We recently went to Turkey on holiday. We saw 3 older ladies with their hair covered that was it.

Every other Turkish woman we encountered or saw didn’t even cover their hair.*

Can i ask where you were? I’ve been going to Turkey for 30yrs and the uptake in women wearing hijab and long cloak type clothes (similar to Erdogan’s wife) is really noticeable.

To be honest, I barely notice women who are simply wearing a hijab. I hated covering my hair personally as I felt deprived of sunlight and my hair was also greasy, but each to their own. Personally, I’d rather cut my hair off if showing hair is deemed such a drama.

I must say, I have never seen a woman in an actual burqain Britain. I do admit, I find them a depressing and unnerving sight to be honest, so long may this continue. I live in Knightsbridge and there are women in niqabs everywhere, plus older women with gold mask face coverings. Not really young children though. It’s not a sight I particularly welcome. When my children were little they used to be quite scared of the black, droid like figures coming down the road. Another thing you see is that women tend to sit in the back of cars and often the wife and children walking behind the husband if out and about. We had a man round to dinner with his wife and she was telling me all about his other wife left behind in Egypt who has “mental health issues” - wonder why?

Working class women used to wear something similar to a hijab within living memory. Check out a Lowry painting for reference

No they didn't. Scarves were common for working class women to wear. But they were not required to wear them. And they did not cover their faces

Hijabs don’t cover your face either. It might be an idea to have the vaguest idea what you’re talking about either. And hijabs are not compulsory in this country either. They’re worn out of personal choice.

Same principle applies. As I was referring to myself and I don't wear niqaab I spoke of my choice to wear hijab

It really, really doesn't. No-one cares if you wear a scarf or hijab, Absolutely no-one. It's the women who cover their faces that some people have an issue with. And I explained why I find it problematic.

You responded to me and I was very clear in both posts that I was exclusively referring to face-covering clothing, not hijabs or head-scarves.

The thread was about burqas, not hijabs.
And hijab is about more than a headscarf. Under Islam it is about modesty, NOT simply wearing a headscarf.

Surely modesty is not just about a length of fabric, its about character.

And hijab is about more than a headscarf

To the wearer yes, but to the viewer there is very little difference in some Muslim headcovering styles to those that other women from non-Muslim ethnic and religious backgrounds choose to wear.

Your motivation for wearing the Hijab makes no difference to the casual observer. AND IT DOESN'T COVER YOUR FACE.

nailak - I hope you don’t mind me asking you this because it’s personal, but could you put into words how wearing a hijab makes you feel closer to god? I’ve always wondered about this - have Muslim women internalised that god requires them to be modest and submissive, partly hidden? Is it even about god or is it a virtue signal to men - or is this actially of the same thing, pleasing men and also god by extension?

Also, do you not think that god can “see” everything anyway and that, regardless of clothing, behaviour should speak for itself. Faith shouldn’t need “props” as it were. Do you think men should respect you whether covered or not, in the same way as you respect them? Is it simply a symbol of your faith, eg an outward show to the public that you are Muslim? Or does it mean something more to you on a psychological or emotional level, like a show of self-worth or “specialness?” Again, I hope you don’t mind my asking, but I would like to understand why it’s important.

Yes I know plenty of women who wear hijab and don't act modestly lol.

The thread had evolved I thought, I mean we talking about multiple wives, fgm, all sorts of things in this thread.

@gerdaloveslili

That's not true though. Many posters have brought up Iran as a place were women are forced to wear hijab.
There are also places were you can be forced to not wear hijab.
In France you cannot get an education if you wear hijab. Not niqaab, just hijab.
In many countries wearing hijab prevents you from entering certain spaces, doing certain jobs accessing certain services.

The most extreme would be the example of the Uhygurs in China.

Anyway
Let me rephrase
Some women are prevented from wearing niqaab So all Muslim women should wear niqaab So We know which ones are forced not to wear it.
It makes no sense that way.
It also makes no sense the other way round.
We cannot say because some people are forced to do something that no one should do it.

That’s because France is a secular society

Religion is personal choice to be kept personal

And threads always move on what had also been discussed is other so called religious requirements and how religion has always favored men

Some women are prevented from wearing niqaab So all Muslim women should wear niqaab So We know which ones are forced not to wear it

Really? That's the best you could come up with?

I don't really care it's their choice isn't it?

Who is we? I've always been OK with it. Clearly you aren't so don't put us all in the same pot

Under Islam it is about modesty, NOT simply wearing a headscarf.

Yes, some women that have no religion at all wear long skirts or baggy trousers or loose tops or high necks because they don’t want to appear modest and don’t want attract attention or because they don’t want to look available and get hassle from blokes trying to chat them up. So I don’t really see why people should start objecting to the hijab which has no negative impact like the burqa because it doesn’t limit activities for the wearer. Well actually I do, it’s because they don’t like the religion so they want to suppress it in its entirety. There are a lot of aspects of Islam I don’t like and find disturbing too. But I’m not silly enough to think they’d be dealt with by telling all Muslim women (many of whom are perfectly decent people living blameless lives) what they can and can’t wear. Because aside from anything else, the overwhelming majority of people involved in the worrying aspects of Islam are MEN!

Hijab is about not tempting men. It is based on an incredibly misogynistic idea.
I have worn a headscarf. But no because I believe I need to be modest and avoid tempting men.

You never seem to get posts on "When did we become o.k with nuns wearing habits?"

It's rare to see and would be a comparison if it wasn't just nuns but Christian women in general.

I don’t think we will get any women on here who wear the full face covering as their husbands wouldn’t allow it. I’m even more convinced now women wear it because they are forced by men or brain washed to think if they leave the house without it men won’t be able to control themselves and of course that would be there fault.