Mixed sex scouts camping

[brotherhoodofspam]

DD going to America for 3 weeks with scouts for World Jamboree next Summer and we've recently completed the UK unit registration form which asks which gender she identfies as, for purposes of allocating sleeping arrangements. I have a lot of sympathy for people with genuine gender dysphoria but AIBU to be quite concerned that 16-18 yr old boys could potentially simply state that they feel female and end up sharing a tent with DD who will be 16 at the time? I suspect the scout movement feel their hands are tied and this is the only non discriminatory way to deal with this but it just doesn't feel properly thought through in terms of protecting teenage girls away from home for nearly a month I'm pretty sure nobody in Dad's unit identfies other than their biological sex so I don't think it will arise as an issue for her personally but I do feel pretty uncomfortable with the principle and think with a camp of 10000 scouts it might be an issue for some. Did any other parents of jamboree-going scouts have concerns about this? Our AIBU and very un-PC.

But we are not talking about dividing things by gender (a made up idea about stereotypes) but by sex - which is either xx (female) or xy (male).
Your sex is determined at a cellular level, you cannot change it, your feelings have no effect on it.

I support the rights of people of either sex to live, dress, present how they wish. A person's sexual preferences are up to them, as long as it's between consenting adults in private it's none of my business.

However, one group of people's rights are not more important than anyone else's- so in this situation, the right of a trans person to use the facilities and sleeping arrangements of their choice does not override the rights of the other people with differently sexed bodies.

We segregate by sex for good reasons- all of which we know even if some posters pretend not to and I for one am deeply suspicious of any adult who pushes for safeguarding rules to be relaxed.

I am absolutely sure that Saville, the rapists in Rotherham, the Soham murderer and the many others are thrilled that safeguarding is being dismantled.

@cece

No, we didn't either. Although mine were at Sweden and Japan.

Makes me wonder whether the op has lit the blue touch paper and run

I am absolutely sure that Saville, the rapists in Rotherham, the Soham murderer and the many others are thrilled that safeguarding is being dismantled.

I'm sure a few of their kind are actively supporting it.

Ok so sorry to derail but I read that as "Mild sex at scouts camp"

I would deffo worry about that. And I would ask the scout leader to tell you if they have any members or staff going who identify as women or girls who are actually boys or men. (I.e. have a penis.) I would.

Something isn't right with this post. The UK Scout units for next years jamboree have been fundraising and having team building exercises for almost a year now so they would be well aware if there was anyone trans in their unit by now, and it will have been dealt with by either sharing a tent with a friend or having a 1 man tent to themselves.

teenagerparent

Yes i agree. There are no UK contingent permission forms. They are dealt with at county level.
The age of participants is 14 -17. The oldest will have their 18th birthdays at the jamboree.

The young people choose who they share a tent with

My son is going to WSJ next year too. He will be 15. There are camps throughout the whole build up- in fact they have another in 2 weeks. His unit state that Scouts and Explorers AND boys and girls have to sleep in different tents which leaves DS sleeping in a tent on his own each time as he is the only boy from our district in his unit- but even if they could mix sexes, he would still be alone as the other 3 from our district are all girls.
The kids would probably share a tent quite happily as they have been together since they were beavers- but they wouldn’t want to get changed near each other.
I’m hoping that as they get further along the jamboree journey, he will make contact with some others from his unit so he can share a tent.
The other 5 Scouts/ Explorers from our district have been put into the other unit from the county and they have 3 boys and 2 girls. However, 1 of their boys is an explorer and the other 2 are scouts so they can’t share anyway. Lonely for the kids at night- and when camping outside later in the year- can be chilly. DS also has medical issues so it would be far better if he wasn’t alone in a tent because if he wakes up having an asthma attack or god forbid woke needing his epipen, there is nobody who can summon help for him.
Tbh, I am deeply in denial about the whole jamboree- but I trust his unit leaders far more than I trust his old scout leader!

Gibble1

That should only apply for the training camps as by the time they go to the jamboree they will all be explorers

FranceFryer has talked a lot of sense on this thread - particularly Sunday's post at 19:49:26, however, we have been asked to register with the UK contingent, and this was the question asked. Not for Sweden nor Japan, but it has been asked ahead of America.

As so many have said, by the time they go, they will have had (depending on each Unit as to when it was formed) at least 18months of working together and camping together to get to know each other inside out. My dd's Unit will have had 2 years. I have no concerns whatsoever about sleeping arrangements or changing arrangements at the Jamboree.

It seems that some people will never get it because they simply don't see the need for sex segregation.

Or if they do see the need for sex segregation they think there's some magical essence of girl that exists in boys who identify as girls.

"It seems that some people will never get it because they simply don't see the need for sex segregation."

Absolutely. There's no need.

"There's some magical essence of girl that exists in boys who identify as girls."

Typically feminine, perhaps?

Sex-based differences due to milenia of evolution seems somehow implausible to gender deniers.

It's fascinating watching such people tie themselves in knots when attempting to explain why they wish to live in a segregated society whilst at the same time thinking any company which doesn't employ 50% women is somehow a product of "the patriarchy".

Well OK then session

Hope your DD has a fantastic time OP! Our group also has a girl going.

Under Scout association rules (POR), boys and girls can and do share tents on camp. However most leaders separate boys and girls into different tents for their own privacy. But we have for example had mixed groups sleeping out in shelters they have made themselves, as POR allows for this.

So I think it's nice that WSJ are giving the kids a choice in their camping situation especially at that age, but it's not a requirement.

we have been asked to register with the UK contingent, and this was the question asked

Surely the question then is purely academic. I can't imagine the UK contingent would get involved with who sleeps with who when the unit leaders know the young people much better

sessionExpired

At least you seem clear that in your opinion sex segregation isn't necessary. I can understand then why you personally wouldn't care about a male in the girls' tent.

I would, however, repectfully disagree - the urinary leash kept women in their place (the home, obvs) for centuries, and Amnesty etc campaign for single sex facilities in refugee camps etc. There was an article this weekend stating that despite making up fewer than half pf facilities, 90% of sex crimes changing rooms are in unisex facilities. The NHS and public fought for years fpr single sex wards for privacy and dignity reasons. I don't want a male rape counsellor or to pat me down at the airport. I don't want women in prison to get pregnant or raped.

Anyway this has gone far from the OP's topic and I do think the chance of a transgirl being in with her DD is vanishingly small - however, it doesn't change the fact that policies like segregating tents on the individuals say so, should carry out impact assessments on natal girls, and it's a safeguarding nightmare to encourage secret keeping from parents.

@SweetheartNeckline

I can't guess what you mean by "urinary leash".

Where's the article about sex crimes and 90% them being in mixed-sex facilities? I find this hard to believe as unisex facilities are so few and far between.

"I don't want a male rape counsellor"

Fine. What does that have to do with the price of ham? Any examples of trans women being rape counselors or is this a lot of whatifery?

Men patting you down at the airport - I struggle to care and by 'struggle, I mean, I don't care. It seems that men are the only 'class' you can discriminate against. I don't want to be patted down by the black / disabled / ginger / etc... sounds awful doesn't it.

The prison scenario is nonsense and pure hysteria from the anti-trans brigade. Prisoners are assessed on their suitability for a particular prison on a case-by-case basis. Funnily enough, men in prison are far more likely to be sexually assaulted by women than women are by men.

"Anyway this has gone far from the OP's topic"

Come on! You'd have to be really stupid (I'm not suggesting you are) to think the OP wasn't planning on this thread going in this direction.

"and I do think the chance of a transgirl being in with her DD is vanishingly small"

Exactly! It makes you wonder why some people (although they seem to be confined to the Internet) are quite so obsessed.

A quick google answered your questions:
The first link is about increased sexual assaults in unisex changing rooms.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/life-style/sexual-assault-unisex-changing-rooms-sunday-times-women-risk-a8519086.html%3famp

This one is about a trans woman wanting to be a rape councillor:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/KimberlyNixonnRapeRelieffCase

And this about female prisoners being sexually assaulted in a Uk jail:

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/metro.co.uk/2018/07/18/transgender-prisoner-sexually-assaulted-female-inmates-days-jailed-7728870/amp/

Now I am by no means saying that all trans women are sexual predators, any more than all men are rapists but some are plus there are some men who will self id as trans in order to get close to vulnerable possible victims.

Because of this, strong safeguarding processes need to be in place as well as the retention of single sex spaces.

I won't waste time reading the rest of the "quick google" links. No mention of 90% of anything.

I don't mean anything unimaginable by urinary leash - it's a term widely used by historians and academics to refer to the way women were and are kept out of the public sphere by lack of provision of safe, sanitary toilet facilities. There's a reason why the first women's public loos were burnt down.

Yes, a male person repeatedly sued a rape crisis centre in Vancouver to the point of closure, because they identified as a woman and wanted to work there. There is also a suggestion that allowing self-id transwomen (with male voices due to well, being male) could become policy in the UK - it's unclear whether that is the case, but I can believe it. A transwoman prisoner has been charged with sexually assaulting 4 fellow inmates. metro.co.uk/2018/07/18/transgender-prisoner-sexually-assaulted-female-inmates-days-jailed-7728870/

It is not discriminatory to want a say in who touches me. You have no idea of my history or reasons for not allowing a strange man to touch me.

You can compare it to racism or gingerism if you like but I will continue to believe that men as a sex class pose a disproportionate and enormous threat to women and children, partly due to their biology (bigger lung capacity, more testosterone, longer levers / reach, heavier weight, greater height and larger body mass), the way they are socialised (rape culture, porn culture) and the way women are socialised to be "nice" to men. None of those factors change when a man or boy changes his pronouns or puts on a dress.

Oh, and the "urinary leash"?

Do you really need that explained?
Women need privacy to urinate as we have to undress. If there is nowhere safe and private then women will not have the freedom to go out and about.

This from the museum of London May help the hard of thinking understand

www.museumoflondon.org.uk/discover/womens-right-work-toilet-bathroom-victorian-london-wwi-factory-protest

The 90% comes from this article - some proper investigative journalism by the Times.

Unisex changing rooms are more dangerous for women and girls than single-sex facilities, research by The Sunday Times shows. Almost 90% of reported sexual assaults, harassment and voyeurism in swimming pool and sports-centre changing rooms happen in unisex facilities, which make up less than half the total.

Gender-neutral changing is growing as councils seek to cut staff costs and cater to transgender people. But one MP said it risked becoming a “magnet” for sex offenders and increased the danger to women and girls.

At least two-thirds of all sex incidents in public pools and leisure centres, whether inside or in the grounds, happen in unisex changing areas. Only a handful occur in single-sex changing rooms, the figures, released under freedom of information (FoI) laws, show.

...

Nicola Williams, the spokeswoman for Fair Play for Women, said “spaces where women are undressed should be single-sex as a matter of course. This is obvious, elementary safeguarding.”

The data emerged four days after Darren Johnson, a serial voyeur, was sentenced to 16 months’ imprisonment after stalking schoolgirls in the mixed changing area of Putney leisure centre in southwest London. Johnson was caught after two 14-year-olds spotted his smartphone poking through a gap from the adjoining cubicle. When police raided his house, they found 150 files of photos taken at the centre. A second voyeur, Anthony Gomes, was caught in the same unisex changing area a few weeks later.

Johnson was co-founder of the children’s soft play chain Eddie Catz, where he also filmed his staff and customers via peepholes.

There were 134 complaints of sexual misconduct in sports centre and swimming pool changing rooms last year, councils said in their FoI responses. Of these, 120 related to incidents that took place in unisex changing rooms and 14 to incidents in single-sex changing rooms. As well as voyeurism, offences recorded in unisex facilities included harassment, sexual assault and rape.

I don't find this difficult to believe at all. It's what we've been trying to tell you / common sense.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/unisex-changing-rooms-put-women-in-danger-8lwbp8kgk

There is non so blind as those who will not see or read in this case

www.independent.co.uk/life-style/sexual-assault-unisex-changing-rooms-sunday-times-women-risk-a8519086.html

Surprised you couldn't find it - was a major story in The Times and Independent this weekend.