Mixed sex scouts camping

[brotherhoodofspam]

DD going to America for 3 weeks with scouts for World Jamboree next Summer and we've recently completed the UK unit registration form which asks which gender she identfies as, for purposes of allocating sleeping arrangements. I have a lot of sympathy for people with genuine gender dysphoria but AIBU to be quite concerned that 16-18 yr old boys could potentially simply state that they feel female and end up sharing a tent with DD who will be 16 at the time? I suspect the scout movement feel their hands are tied and this is the only non discriminatory way to deal with this but it just doesn't feel properly thought through in terms of protecting teenage girls away from home for nearly a month I'm pretty sure nobody in Dad's unit identfies other than their biological sex so I don't think it will arise as an issue for her personally but I do feel pretty uncomfortable with the principle and think with a camp of 10000 scouts it might be an issue for some. Did any other parents of jamboree-going scouts have concerns about this? Our AIBU and very un-PC.

It’s not about being rapey. It’s about sharing mixed sex spaces when asleep/ changing etc. It’s about basic privacy and personal space. I don’t think all men are rapists, but I don’t want to have to get naked in front of them. Same for male bodied trans people. You do you. But you are male and you should not be in female sex segregated spaces.

Thanks all, as PPs have said, I have no objection to her camping doing activities etc with boys it's just the actual sharing a tent/ washing facilities that concerned me, it's never been an issue till now and she's been on lots of camps / expeditions. It all feels a bit Emperor's New Clothes, someone says they're female and we're all just expected to say "yes you are" when they're patently not.

If we believe there is a need for sex segregated spaces, then we should retain sex-segregated spaces.

....but that there is something inherently rapey about trans people (I disagree)?"

I think it's more that trans identified males are inherently penisey that's the concern.

Why are people uncomfortable with the idea of a trans girl being around their daughter, but presumably not a lesbian girl?

Being around is fine. Being around while naked isn't. Lesbians are female (well unless you're a trans girl) and have the same bodies as other females. Separating the sexes has never been about stopping sexual attraction.

It's mostly male sexed bodies that do the raping doesn't matter what the gender identity is, as there are still plenty of trans sex offenders

If you believe there is a reason the sexes are separated by biology then just saying that you identify as the opposite sex changes nothing.

Human beings cannot change their biological sex and we should not be telling children that it is possible to do so.

Single sex facilities should mean single biological sex. I would ask for my son or daughter to be able to shower change and sleep alongside members of their own biological sex only. We need to be raising concerns.

In terms of overall rapeyness, I think it’s pretty well-established that transwomen retain male pattern levels of violence and rapeyness though. So it rather bears asking why you think they don’t, JustBeReadonable? It’s just inherent male levels of rapeyness, not any extra-special levels of rapeyness, and I object to all female scouts and guides having to share intimate facilities with all male scouts and guides. Nothing to do with made up gender identities. Strictly biological in accordance with EA2010.

Even if a trans girl is not attracted to girls (ie is a homosexual male, as a proportion will be), as Mamaryllis said, why is it OK to assume that girls will be comfortable changing and sleeping with a them (a male)?

My dd is also going, and although I balked at the self-ID question on the form, I also know that at the Jamboree they only sleep two per tent, and that they choose with whom they share within the unit. So it shouldn't be an issue for this event - notwithstanding the broader problem.

That's helpful Lemonsole, we hadn't been given that information yet.

Not sure why Mamaryllis thinks I’m male

Separating the sexes has never been about stopping sexual attraction.

Lots of people here have said that the issue is the risk of rape, which doesn’t tally with the idea that it is typically separate from sexual attraction.

The issue as far as I can tell is that people’s opinions are coming from an emotive discomfort rather than being based in logic. Is there any hard evidence that teenaged girls are more likely to be raped by a trans girl than sexually assaulted by a typical girl?

The claim that it matters because she could get pregnant is pretty fucking minimising to all those raped under circumstances not leading to pregnancy, so you can fuck right off with telling me I’m the one minimising there, LadybirdsAreBirds

For what it’s worth, we don’t actually know what arrangements would be put in place for a trans girl, since we haven’t responded as such on the form. I strongly suspect the girl would be put in a tent by herself or with a willing best friend who already knew and volunteered.

Just

I am not sure if yo

Just

u are amenable to reason if you think that

a) sexual assaults by women on other women are as common as those by men on women
b) rape is about sexual attraction

97 % of violent sexual assaults are committed by men. That is your hard evidence.

Lots of people here have said that the issue is the risk of rape, which doesn’t tally with the idea that it is typically separate from sexual attraction

Rape isn’t about sexual attraction though .

I have DSs that accompany me to some Girl Guiding events. As opposite-sex Child of Leader status there are rules that are there about access to sleeping/ toilets etc for the well being of themselves, the girls and the leaders. It is transparent that a pair of male children are there frequently on pack nights because of lack of childcare. If that does not suit a girl and her family, alternative units are avaliable. Girl Guiding can't afford to lose volunteers because they produced children of the wrong sex.

However if my DS announced "I feel like a girl" he could become a full member of Girl Guiding. He could share a room with female classmates who may soon go through puberty (and it's inevitable awkwardness) and have known him as a boy from a young age. They are too young to pose a significant safeguarding risk, but the policy that meant we would all have to ignore his XY physique is unfair on the other members of the unit and their rights to privacy and dignity.

I've been staff on a large scale mixed Scouting and Guiding camp. The safeguarding teams were run ragged for the week due to regular incidents between older teenagers.

I believe that transparency is important for protecting young people, whatever their genes, identity or orientation.

Try again

I am not sure if you are amenable to reason if you think that

a) sexual assaults by women agains women are as common as sexual assaults by men against women

b) rape is about sexual attraction

As for your last sweary point, I am nor sure what you mean

Praents do not want their girls to get raped or get pregnant

And to clarify, I consider the term 'rapey' to be minimising of what rape is, and the trauma it causes. But if you think that warrants anger at me, then so be it.

a) sexual assaults by women on other women are as common as those by men on women
b) rape is about sexual attraction

I think you may be misinterpreting me, and also confused about the idea of risk.

Women are definitely more likely be be sexually assaulted by a man than a woman, overall. No one would deny that. But the likelihood of being raped by a trans girl in a tent is, I suspect, lower than of being assaulted by any other girl in a tent, simply because the odds of sharing a tent with a trans rapist are really unimaginably tiny, so likely smaller than of sharing a tent with a girl who may assault.

Granted, being assaulted by a girl wouldn’t get you pregnant, but I can’t quite believe you’re implying that the the major issue with rape is the chance of pregnancy (or that a girl sharing a tent with a penis-owner won’t be able to resist getting herself pregnant, which is the alternative implication there).

As for whether tape is about sexual attraction, of course it’s not, but it is in the vast majority of cases linked- heterosexual rapists typically rape women and homosexual rapists typically rape men. People don’t have to be ‘sexually attractive’ to be at risk of rape, but generally (not always, but in the vast majority of cases) they do need to be of the sex that the rapist is attracted to. Are you claiming that’s just a coincidence?

Otherwise why are we not worried about boys having to share tents with boys? Are they not all at risk?

Bear in mind this is all theoretical, since no girl is being made to share a tent with a trans girl anyway.

I do not consider ‘rapey’ to be mimisiming in the context so we’ll have to agree to disagree there, but I do consider the idea that potential pregnancy is the issue with rape pretty abhorrent.

No, I am NOT saying the risk of rape is pregnancy. You have completely misunderstood.

I am saying that there's a risk of

a) consensual sexual activity that could result in pregnancy

OR

b)There's a risk of rape

Is she shares a tent with a girl there is no risk of a) and minimal risk of b)

And I'm glad you "can’t quite believe you’re implying that the the major issue with rape is the chance of pregnancy" Because I wasn't. You made that up in your head

Transwomen/girls are statistically as likely to commit violence against women as men. To assume otherwise is naive.

A male-bodied youngster identifying as a girl retains their sex drive and any other characteristics they might possess.

There is no comparison with a girl sharing accommodation with a lesbian.

Lots of people here have said that the issue is the risk of rape, which doesn’t tally with the idea that it is typically separate from sexual attraction.

My god do you really think men rape women because they fancy them

Is there any hard evidence that teenaged girls are more likely to be raped by a trans girl than sexually assaulted by a typical girl?

Yes. Lots of evidence that trans girls and transwomen are just as likely to sexually assault as males. TW tend to be straight males btw.