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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Mixed sex scouts camping

205 replies

brotherhoodofspam · 02/09/2018 15:35

DD going to America for 3 weeks with scouts for World Jamboree next Summer and we've recently completed the UK unit registration form which asks which gender she identfies as, for purposes of allocating sleeping arrangements. I have a lot of sympathy for people with genuine gender dysphoria but AIBU to be quite concerned that 16-18 yr old boys could potentially simply state that they feel female and end up sharing a tent with DD who will be 16 at the time? I suspect the scout movement feel their hands are tied and this is the only non discriminatory way to deal with this but it just doesn't feel properly thought through in terms of protecting teenage girls away from home for nearly a month I'm pretty sure nobody in Dad's unit identfies other than their biological sex so I don't think it will arise as an issue for her personally but I do feel pretty uncomfortable with the principle and think with a camp of 10000 scouts it might be an issue for some. Did any other parents of jamboree-going scouts have concerns about this? Our AIBU and very un-PC.

OP posts:
LadybirdsAreBirds · 03/09/2018 06:08

Why do we have sex segregation?

Do you think that humans can change sex?

LadybirdsAreBirds · 03/09/2018 06:11

And do you think that safeguarding goes out of the window just because someone has muddled up sex and gender identification?

LadybirdsAreBirds · 03/09/2018 06:15

What in the wide wide world of sport does marriage, mortgages and children have to do with anything?

Are you seriously suggestion any of those things preclude someone being an abuser?

ItsScoob · 03/09/2018 06:41

@LadybirdsAreBirds

I think "safeguarding" should go out of the window as it seems to be a catch-all concept for the uninformed.

Why are you talking about sports? However, since you've mentioned it, sex segregation in sports is about the only time I think it's 'necessary' - and by necessary, I mean make a fun activity a little more equal.

StarfishSandwich · 03/09/2018 06:52

🙄

When I was an Explorer we were all swapping tents and staying up all night anyway so what gender anyone identified with was irrelevant tbh.

MeyMary · 03/09/2018 06:52

Mixed scouts is quite normal where I'm from (there are no brownies guides. although there are other organisations that do seem to stick to single sex groups. most of those have a religious background)... So no, I wouldn't be too concerned about this.

Your DD is 16+(?) and therefore able (in most cases...) to decide for herself whether she's comfortable with this.

Booboostwo · 03/09/2018 07:23

Do you have the same concerns about your DD sharing spaces with natal girls who are lesbians?

SweetheartNeckline · 03/09/2018 07:32

JESUS CHRIST. Lesbians are women. Lesbians are female. Lesbians share a body type with other girls in the tent, have periods, endometriosis, cannot rape, cannot get girls pregnant.

Being a lesbian does not change your sex or make you less female and being in the company of your natal sex when at your most vulnerable (changing, toileting, sleeping) is a hard-won right that women fought for for fucking centuries. Lesbophobia is not ok.

ItsScoob · 03/09/2018 07:34

@SweetheartNeckline

Lesbians are the most likely to be subjected to domestic violence.

This isn't lesbianphobia, it's a fact. I'd be petrified if my DD was in a lesbian relationship as the chance of her having the shit beaten out of her by her partner is much higher than if she wasn't.

SweetheartNeckline · 03/09/2018 07:43

You're right, Scoobs, facts aren't phobic. Implying that a lesbian somehow wouldn't belong in the SEX SEGREGATED accomodation for women, however, is.

cece · 03/09/2018 07:49

Just waving as my my ds is off to the jamboree next summer too.

MeyMary · 03/09/2018 07:56

@ItsScoob

But this isn't about romantic relationships. This is about sleeping arrangements...

Single sex spaces have (as far as I know) be proven to be safer than mixed spaces.

The very likely presence of lesbians (about 1 in 10 women/girls, I believe?) doesn't seem to have changed this.

MeyMary · 03/09/2018 08:00

*have been proven

sashh · 03/09/2018 08:09

Girls and boys can do it anywhere, anytime. Trust your child.

I think the OP is more bothered by a predatory male identifying as female in order to share a tent with girls.

AChickenCalledKorma · 03/09/2018 08:14

hopelesswanderer my daughters joined scouts after brownies because the local guide unit was tiny and boring. And lots of their friends (male and female) were scouts and enjoyed it. Simple as that.

FrancesFryer · 03/09/2018 08:28

I think the OP is more bothered by a predatory male identifying as female in order to share a tent with girls.

The selection process is so stringent that if this were their only motive, or indeed a small part of their motive for wanting to go, I doubt they would get past the first stage

sashh · 03/09/2018 08:53

FrancesFryer

David Challoner was a scout leader. He also influenced the policy of trans people in girl guides.

Never underestimate the skill / tenacity of abusers.

PinkFlamingo888 · 03/09/2018 09:12

She’ll be sneaking into the boy tent anyway so the boys identifying as girls are the least of your problems.

DN4GeekinDerby · 03/09/2018 09:48

That sounds awful for your son, Anotherloverholeinyohead. While I'm sure many Scout leaders are great, that does read like really poor, lazy planning with little care for his needs and no thought for taking in 'the views of young people and their parents' but what was easiest at the time. I imagine my 14-year-old son would react in a similar way if it happened at his SJA cadet camp (SJA so far have firm no mixed sex tents policies - getting caught in one is on the list of things that can get you sent home - but that may change).

ItsScoob The stats commonly used to show lesbian are the most likely to be subjected to domestic violence doesn't show that at all. They actually place behind bisexual women regardless of which sex her partner is by a significant margin and slightly more likely to be victimized than bisexual men and heterosexual women. There has been a ton of research showing the whole 'lesbian relationships are the most violent' relies on very unreliable data so ItsScoob it's not really 'a fact'. It's data cherry picking and really undermines efforts done to make LGBT and female-perpetrated violence taken seriously when such bad data and oversimplification is treated as 'facts' and just as ridiculous and hurtful as people trying to claim all domestic violence is male-perpetuated to those of us who are victims of female-perpetrated violence.

All they want to do is 'be'. They aren't sexual predators or con artists; they are simply children.

I was a dysphoric child who wanted to be. I wrestled in high school on an otherwise all-male team in an almost all male district - so about as close and full contact as we can get with clothes on. I still wasn't allowed in the boys' changing room without two adult escorts who did a check before I entered and I got my own room on trips and distant away meets among other accommodations for my dysphoria. Most kids are lovely, and the vetting process can help reduce the risks, but kids can harm other kids and while same-sex abuse between kids very much happens, there are additional risks when it's a mixed-sex situation that can't be ignored. As kids we weren't considered old enough to make choices on those risks, that's what the adults are supposed to be doing for kids.

I was allowed to be and wrestled as I wished, but I wasn't allowed to put myself or others at any more risk than anyone else. I mean, for those who don't seem to get the sex segregation, would you put a female teen in a hotel room with three teen boys or in a changing room with 30+ of them just because the female teen has gender dysphoria - or would you find better, safer accommodations for everyone involved? Seeing as the youngest boy in the lowest weight class could easily throw me across the training room when I was months from graduating high school, I think my school made the right choice.

Same applies to male teens with dysphoria, there are reasons - for both the trans girls and the other girls - that being lazy and going for the easy cool option of just putting dysphoric kids in with the other sex is unhelpful. Being distressed by our sex characteristics doesn't mean common sense, consideration, and safeguarding go out the window. You can include trans and other dysphoric kids while also having separate sleeping spaces and showering facilities or times, we can be included without throwing us in with the other sex and thinking that will meet all of our additional needs. It doesn't, it really doesn't. Been there, tried that, it can actually make dysphoria worse having what you can never be in your face all the time before even getting to the physical risks. Dysphoric kids deserve better than that, they deserve to have far more consideration than what makes the adults look cool and is easiest for them even if none were ever a threat to anyone else, the risks to the dysphoric kid have to be considered too.

Screaminginsidemeagain · 03/09/2018 09:53

Mixed sleeping accommodation is only allowed if everyone concerned agrees to it and the sexes have adequate privacy for changing etc.

The Scout association have very sensible guidance on this. Talk to your leaders and your child about the options.

WrongOnTInternet · 03/09/2018 09:56

Good god, what planet are some of you living on? On what planet have biological males never been a threat to biological females? On what planet are female teenagers not particularly vulnerable to males of every age?

Why do you think sex segregated spaces were created in the first place? This has been asked a few times and I haven't seen an answer yet.

Why on earth do you think that that has all magically changed all of a sudden?

MrsWooster · 03/09/2018 10:00

It's not(necessarily) about danger from male bodies. It's about dignity and privacy. The DD may well sneak into boys tents if she's that way inclined but she deserves privacy to dress, wash and get herself ready in the presence of other female bodies to go over there.

WrongOnTInternet · 03/09/2018 10:05

Can I remind you all that 'dignity and privacy' in MrsWooster's terms, mean the ability to have a shower without a bunch of teenage boys desperately trying to catch a glimpse and sniggering together the way they do. It's not something to minimise or dismiss.

I have been in a secondary school recently where the boys literally could not go 5 minutes without having to touch the girls.

PositivelyPERF · 03/09/2018 10:12

She’ll be sneaking into the boy tent anyway so the boys identifying as girls are the least of your problems.

So what, if she does? If she decides to, that would be her CHOICE! Being made to share female spaces with a male pretending to be female, or being called a bigot, would not be a CHOICE. Fuck, there are some ignorant asses on this site.

titchy · 03/09/2018 11:19

The Scout association have very sensible guidance on this

They don't you know - hence the permission form asking about gender identity rather than sex as the factor that determines sleeping and bathroom arrangements.

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