Mixed sex scouts camping

[brotherhoodofspam]

DD going to America for 3 weeks with scouts for World Jamboree next Summer and we've recently completed the UK unit registration form which asks which gender she identfies as, for purposes of allocating sleeping arrangements. I have a lot of sympathy for people with genuine gender dysphoria but AIBU to be quite concerned that 16-18 yr old boys could potentially simply state that they feel female and end up sharing a tent with DD who will be 16 at the time? I suspect the scout movement feel their hands are tied and this is the only non discriminatory way to deal with this but it just doesn't feel properly thought through in terms of protecting teenage girls away from home for nearly a month I'm pretty sure nobody in Dad's unit identfies other than their biological sex so I don't think it will arise as an issue for her personally but I do feel pretty uncomfortable with the principle and think with a camp of 10000 scouts it might be an issue for some. Did any other parents of jamboree-going scouts have concerns about this? Our AIBU and very un-PC.

But scouts are run by individual people who, for the most part, have common sense and experience in dealing with prepubescents and teens.
The reality is yes i’d Mix sleep the kids if it was safer - I.e a child alone in a tent verse in a separate compartment in the same tent. But only if everyone was comfortable with this, there was space for privacy while changing etc.

Last night of a big camp the kids often all sleep in the big marquee or outside under a load of ground sheets.
Common sense does still prevail despite what is written or argued about on social media.

Sweetheartneckline I didn’t imply lesbians are a threat, I drew the OP’s worries to their logical conclusion. She is concerned that a person with a penis will be sexually attracted to her DD and use the access to th shared accommodation to perv on her and maybe even abuse her. All this applies to lesbians and bisexual people. Lesbians can perv women, and abuse them and rape them (you really have a very limited imagination if you can’t figure that one out).

So if the OP is worried about her DD being exposed to trans MTF people then she should be equally worried about lesbians and bisexual women, all of whom could be attracted to girls. The only way for her Dd to be safe, according to the OP’s worry, is to have her sleep with heterosexual women, while lesbians, bisexual women and trans women get individual rooms.

That is an extension of the OP’s reasoning, not my reasoning. It shows it up for how ridiculous it is.

But they don't. 98 % of sexual assault is by men. If there is no problem with makes them why do transwomen not want to use make facilities. Because of male violence.

If there is no problem with males then why do transwomen not want to use male facilities that should say!

So it’s a question of likelihood of attack? Then it’s an empirical matter. How many MTF trans teens have sexually attacked girls in shared spaces and women likely is this to happen to the OP’s DD if she were to share with a trans MTF person at this camp? I am not a statistician but I imagine that the answer is that the DD is more likely to be involved in a car accident on the way to camp.

@cece

Did you have this question on your form?

Rape as it is currently defined I law can only be committed by a man with a penis.

Women cannot commit the crime of rape.

How this law is interpreted when a "girl" has a penis is mind boggling

booboos I am 100% certain my brother doesn't fancy me or want to "perv" (as you delightfully minimise it to). I still do not want to see him naked or for him to see me naked. I wouldn't like for him to see my bedsheets covered in blood after a heavy period starting overnight.

Dignity, privacy and respect for females is all I want. 3 weeks is a long time to feel uncomfortable.

And I specifically stated rape - in UK law a penis is an essential body part for that crime.

98% of sex crimes are carried out by males (XY chromosomed / bepenised humans)

All this applies to lesbians and bisexual people. Lesbians can perv women, and abuse them and rape them (you really have a very limited imagination if you can’t figure that one out).

Christ booboos are you aware of how lesbophObic that sounds? The vast vast vast majority of females, regardless of sexuality, DO NOT SEXUALLY ABUSE, or make other females feel uncomfortable. Whilst I agree the vast majority of teenage boys do not sexually abuse either, their presence CAN make a teenage female feel very uncomfortable indeed. I'm sure we all have a few anecdotes from our own school days about teenage boys being lecherous, but none about teenage girls being lecherous.

A lesbian cannot rape anyone according to English law

Does it actually says its asking for the reason of allocating tents or is it just a question for them to see how many trans they have in the movement? The reason I ask is that boys and girls can already share tents within scouting so long as the child, their parents and leaders are all happy with it. My daughter often shares with a boy she has known her whole life rather than be in a tent on her own. They do insist that they change/dress in separately either one at a time in the tent or by using the toilet/shower block.

@JustBeReasonable

Lots of people here have said that the issue is the risk of rape, which doesn’t tally with the idea that it is typically separate from sexual attraction. The issue as far as I can tell is that people’s opinions are coming from an emotive discomfort rather than being based in logic. Is there any hard evidence that teenaged girls are more likely to be raped by a trans girl than sexually assaulted by a typical girl?

Hmm. That's interesting as I'd have said the same about your posts. You are using your emotions and feelings to decided that transgirls are less a threat than males. Why would they be? Why are you comparing them to actual females where there is plenty of evidence that they are likely to commit crimes at typical male rate rather than females. Women abusers account for 2% of sex abuse crimes. The Times article on Transwomen in prison for sex crimes makes for uncomfortable reading.

For trans girls to be as safe as girls you have to believe one of the below. Which one is it?

Males are equally as dangerous to girls as other girls.

Transgirls are less dangerous than boys as they have "girl brains" and girl brains are naturally less violent than boy brains.

Because if you believe:
Boys are socialised in a way that makes them a risk to girls and women. it goes without saying that transgirls are obviously the same risk as boys.

So it’s a question of likelihood of attack? Then it’s an empirical matter. How many MTF trans teens have sexually attacked girls in shared spaces and women likely is this to happen to the OP’s DD if she were to share with a trans MTF person at this camp? I am not a statistician but I imagine that the answer is that the DD is more likely to be involved in a car accident on the way to camp.

Interesting post, however in the past "transgirls" would not have been given the option in the past so it's hard to have accurate statistics.
What we do know however, is that where adult transwomen were allowed in female spaces women have been attacked. Prisons, domestic violence refuges and toilets and locker rooms. Women have been removed from those spaces for refusing to share personal areas with TW.

We now have a very recent situation where we have decided based on no evidence that this will be safe as there are so few transgirls have identified as trans in the past and didn't have the option of sharing with girls anyway however the amount of children being sent to gender identity clinics has increased ten fold. If social contagion is a risk then surely we can only expect this number to keep increasing causing a real isssue.

You are using your emotions and feelings to decided that transgirls are less a threat than males.

Actually no, I’m saying that the threat from either is utterly tiny (and honestly I suspect lower, but there are no stats on that). I can understand a privacy issue with sharing tents- but I think that remains regardless of the sex of the sharer. To claim that there is a significant risk of rape in this case is pretty unpleasant to the children I know who genuinely, deeply identify as trans.

As I’ve also said, I suspect the reality is that special arrangements would be likely made in the case of a trans teen here.

Francesfryer

Not that we can remember. I wonder if we filled in all the forms?

but I think that remains regardless of the sex of the sharer.

It doesn't or we wouldn't segregate space by sex in situations where privacy is a concern ever.

If you find the lesbian argument to be homophobic then the trans argument is equally discriminatory as they are analogous. In both cases there is a small risk of an unidentified member of a group causing harm and in both cases this is the justification for excluding the entire group.

One can appeal to the inherent danger all males pose as opposed to lesbians/bi women, in order to differentiate between the two arguments but all that does is shift the focus. If men are inherently so dangerous the OP’s DD should not go to camp at all to avoid the male Scout leaders, groundskeepers, maintenance men etc at the camp, not to mention staying in her home to avoid the male priests, male teachers, male social workers that are, statistically, perpetrators of sexual crimes against women or even worse stay locked up in her room to avoid her male relatives who also fall in the same group of dangerous potential male offenders.

They're not analogous at all. Females are FAR more comfortable sharing tents and showers with other females, regardless of shapes, sizes or sexuality than they are sharing with males.

I don't regard my 82 year old FIL as remotely threatening, but I ain't changing my t-shirt in front of him, whereas I'd be quite happy to change in front of my MIL. Dignity and privacy you see. I'm not forfeiting mine for anyone.

One can appeal to the inherent danger all males pose as opposed to lesbians/bi women, in order to differentiate between the two arguments but all that does is shift the focus. If men are inherently so dangerous the OP’s DD should not go to camp at all to avoid the male Scout leaders, groundskeepers, maintenance men etc at the camp, not to mention staying in her home to avoid the male priests, male teachers, male social workers that are, statistically, perpetrators of sexual crimes against women or even worse stay locked up in her room to avoid her male relatives who also fall in the same group of dangerous potential male offenders.

I don't think anyone on this thread would suggest that the Op's daughter should share a changing room or tent with a priest, male teacher or male social worker.

No one would. They would be fired immediately for suggesting such a thing because of basic safe guarding practices. No one is complaining about transgirls going to scouts. It's about them being allowed in sex segregated spaces.

You seem to be making the point that if you want to engage with males at any time besides lock yourself in your room you should be happy to accept them at all times?

It's a common form of rape apology actually.

In both cases there is a small risk of an unidentified member of a group causing harm and in both cases this is the justification for excluding the entire group.

Which also goes for bisexual and heterosexual women/girls. They can be dangerous as well. And victimise (even sexually) other females. (Be it as the main perpetrator, a participant or accomplice...)

But they are still biological females. Something trans women simply aren't...

And it's not "just" about sexual assault. It's also about the importance of single sex spaces in general. At least imo. (Which is why I wouldn't want a homosexual boy with the girls either*. Or a homosexual girl with the boys...)

*Even though that did happen to a gay boy when I was in highschool...

It doesn't or we wouldn't segregate space by sex in situations where privacy is a concern ever.

Sorry but I don’t want to strip naked or shit in front of someone regardless of their gender. To claim that privacy is only a concern around the opposite sex is ludicrous.

People’s arguments against this very hypothetical situation are constantly flitting between “the trans girl is likely to be a rapist” (I phrase it at that extreme as anyone might be a rapist- the implication in this case is that there is a significant likelihood) and “it’s a privacy issue”.

The first is offensive and ridiculous. The second works on a spectrum depending on the individual- some people wouldn’t care who they shared with, some people would be uncomfortable sharing with anyone, and all levels in between.

Regardless though, we don’t have a single example of where this has actually been an issue

People’s arguments against this very hypothetical situation are constantly flitting between “the trans girl is likely to be a rapist” (I phrase it at that extreme as anyone might be a rapist- the implication in this case is that there is a significant likelihood) and “it’s a privacy issue”.

It's both.

Again - are you arguing for no sex segregation at all? because if not, why is not appropriate in this case?

are you arguing for no sex segregation at all? because if not, why is not appropriate in this case?

Generally I don’t have a problem with dividing things by gender if it is the simplest way of providing resources for a population (though I do see great value in providing privacy regardless of gender- closed cubicle toilets rather than men’s and women’s, for example). However I also don’t have a problem with making exceptions- a child who has lived as a girl since the age of 10, whose friends also believe her to be a girl, is not going to cause a problem in an all female tent. Last time I went camping in school we weren’t all flashing our genitals at each other...

Generally I don’t have a problem with dividing things by gender if it is the simplest way of providing resources for a population (though I do see great value in providing privacy regardless of gender- closed cubicle toilets rather than men’s and women’s, for example). However I also don’t have a problem with making exceptions- a child who has lived as a girl since the age of 10, whose friends also believe her to be a girl, is not going to cause a problem in an all female tent. Last time I went camping in school we weren’t all flashing our genitals at each other...

You're massively missing the point, aren't you? You obviously can't see why sex segregation is important for protecting girls' and women's privacy and safety.