To find my children's friend's 'accidents' really irritating

[Thingiebob]

My children have a friend who lives directly opposite. They are the same age, same school but in different classes. They play together all the time at school and in the evenings and seem to enjoy it. She's 8 and I really want to like her but I am starting to find her quite annoying. She does stuff that drives me up the wall and actively affects my two. I'm close with her mum and I really don't want to fall out as we will be living opposite her for a long time, but she is starting to drive me nuts...

She's not REALLY naughty but has a tendency to just do stuff for no real reason. When I talk to her about it she always claims it was an 'accident'. For example, she chucked my youngest's shoes into a neighbour's garden and made him promise not to tell me. He did tell me the following day in tears after I had searched high and low for them. (He is quite young) When I gently talk to her about it, she runs off home and then I have to deal with her mum who always comes over to inform me it was an 'accident'.

She often damages or breaks my daughter's toys so now I've asked DD to not take anything expensive or dear to her out to play.

She can be quite rough - pushing and grabbing my two quite roughly. I've seen it with my own eyes. It's not an accident but again she always insists it is when I ask her to be more gentle. They'll be playing a game together then out of the blue she'll just yank DDs hair. The other day she hit her between her legs. To make things awkward she is currently being assessed for ASD and Sensory Integration Disorder so I know we all need to be patient with her but some days I want to keep her away from my children.

Other times they play happily together for hours. Her mum has told me that playing with my two has made a real difference to her dd's social skills and confidence and I have seen her behaviour improve over time. I can see the child is benefiting, and I am very proud of my two for how patient and kind they are with her. They are also very fond of her and enjoy hanging out with her, but sometimes they want a break and want to play together and practice their shared hobby. On these occasions she cries, goes home and tells her mum my two are being mean because they won't play with her despite my two always suggesting she joins them. She hates their hobby and refuses to do it. I then get her mum knocking on the door telling me my two are ignoring her DD and could I have a word with them. This has happened twice now and I fear I am going to snap soon as I feel she is not entitled to my kids spare time all the time. Her mum ignores her behaviour.

I HATE that she irritates me so much. It makes me feel horrid as she's not a bad kid and she's had a tough time lately. She can be sweet, fun and good-natured and then she'll do something like deliberately draw all over DD's book or throw her food around. The other day she poured DS's entire juice carton down the drain... accident apparently.

Any advice on how to manage this sensitively?

I don't understand why you feel so obliged to entertain this child at the detriment of your children

Does the mum ever pop over and supervise with you? She seems to want to dump and run - and have lots of free time for herself while you wrestle to supervise her daughter

Tell her X is sad because child broke her toys X was crying because child pulled her hair

She's not a friend she's a user and your children are suffering for it

An open door policy with immediate-neighbouring children is sheer folly by my estimation. Therein madness lies.

How can chucking a pair of shoes into a neighbour's garden be "an accident"? Lots of annoying things could be argued with when the mother tries to embarrassingly back up her 8 year old daughter's "logic".

I hope you can get the balls to not accept anymore of this accident business. Stand your ground. "Friend, how could throwing a pair of shoes into another garden be an accident? How can telling my son not to tell me, be an accident?" Push it. See what she says. Hopefully she will hear herself being ridiculous.

I second the PPs who suggest a sit down talk with the mum. Stress it is for all your sakes and that you want to talk because you enjoy the friendships and want to keep them. She may be going through a tough time but this will help her in the long run.

I have 3 boys with Autism, the two youngest are especially hard work, I love them to bits but I'm used to them and wouldn't swap them for the world. I wouldn't dream of letting them play at someone else's house for so long (There isn't any other children there age nearby for them to play with so they don't have that option anyway). The mother is expecting you to have her over far too much, it's giving her free respite. In return you should definately have your chidlren play at hers too. If she needs proper respite she should be phoning the council for a carers assessment. The little girl may be 8 but her social and emotional age is most likely much younger. My 7 year old will tell me he doesn't know why he's done something or even say it was an accident (when it clearly wasn't) and he will genuinely not know why he has done something he shouldn't have done. It drives me potty. Telling them off for doing something doesn't mean that they won't do it again, they forget.

I disagree with some cases of asd being due to a lack of discipline. I think that, aside from rare cases of misdiagnosis, children with a diagnosis of asd have asd.
Parents of children with asd aren’t some kind of special breed though. Some parent well and some parent poorly like all parents.
I don’t think this girls mum is doing her dd any favours by excusing her behaviour. And you need to kindly point out when you’ve seen that an ‘accident’ has happened on purpose.

Your kids sound lovely. My daughter is autistic and has similarly nice playmates and we feel very lucky to have them! I think it can be an autistic trait to struggle to see other perspectives: we spend a lot of time with DD working on turn taking etc. and teaching her that she has to play other kids games too, it can't always be them doing her ideas.

I think the best you can do is (a) as others have suggested give a bit of a warning when the playdate is coming to an end (so the girl knows that your kids are going to do X activity in 5 minutes, so if she doesn't want to join in she'll need to go home - or just that she'll need to go home if that's what you think your kids need) - as transitions can be challenging for kids with ASC and (b) talk to the mum and point out that although your kids love playing with her daughter they do also need some time just to be by themselves, and also some time to do their hobbies - and it's not being mean or unkind for them to do that. You could maybe talk to her about how best to handle the transition (e.g. whether it's helpful for you to also text her ahead of the playdate ending, as others suggested)?

The "accidents" are trickier. It's not obvious to me whether that's anything to do with the ASD - sounds more like a parenting issue? Certainly I would tell my DD off and take her home from a playdate if she did anything as naughty as throwing another child's shoes over a fence (and she is only 4). But managing different parenting styles of kids' friends.... yes ... been there, not found a solution yet - following the thread with interest! Broadly speaking I think if at your house all the kids follow your rules - and if at the other girl's house her parents are in charge - but I'm sure there are exceptions to that.

And she’s definitely entering cf territory sending her dd to your house to pour your juice away and chuck shoes over the fence while her house remains spotless!

Tainfall of that behaviour was down to disability then you wouldnt force your kid onto other peoples kids then blame the other kids. Autism exists definitely, but i find it insulting that kids like that are associated with mine by diagnosis. It ruins it for the genuine cases.

I also very much agree with this:

"She is first and foremost, a child, and does what kids do, she is not defined by her Autism, and some of her behaviour is because she is testing my boundaries as other kids do."

You need to parent autistic children differently, but you do still need to parent them...

You need to parent autistic children differently, but you do still need to parent them...

But OP isn't the parent!

The mother isn't parenting her well when she's sent home the mum complains .... no doubt interupts her peaceful afternoons whilst OP runs ragged and disagrees with how OP returns her ....

No point giving OP parenting tips when it's not her job and the mother isn't interested

Parenting a child with ASD, setting and consistently enforcing boundaries and teaching appropriate behaviour is much harder and requires a different set of specialist Uber-parenting skills than parenting a neuro-typical child. Analogous to herding cats as opposed to training a dog due to the fact that it is common for autistic DC to lack a social desire to please which underpins gaining compliance. Telling off (often the only parenting tool needed for NT DC) simply does not work, is often counter-productive and at worst can trigger a meltdown and hugely increase challenging behaviour. It does not 'teach' - the behaviour will be repeated.

Then there's the other stuff.

Language, cognitive and sensory issues have been assessed (by speech and language, occupational health and psychological therapists using objective assessment) as similar to those found in people with dementia and altzeimers.

Developmental age is often 2/3 of chronological age so expectations of an 8 year old need to be the same as those for a 5 year old.

Being assessed often takes years and is the most difficult stage as the child is not being supported and the parent (and wider community) don't know how to parent/behave and continue to use NT parenting techniques because they would rather believe the child was just naughty and that this is just a phase that will pass or that they can fix it when the alternative is a life-long condition that can be improved but never 'fixed'.

It helps to adopt the parenting needed as if the child has been diagnosed. It will never cause harm even if the child is not autistic but can hugely improve things if they are. You don't have to wait for an official NHS diagnosis.

Her mum needs to take the lead on this. Her daughter might be naughty, the mum may be a CF but she might be lost and needing help and support. Try sign-posting her to the SN boards on here, NAS, Ambitious About Autism etc if you can.

You sound compassionate and caring but don't need to tolerate the intolerable at the expense of your DC.

‘developmental age is often 2/3 of chronological age so expectations of an 8 year old need to be the same as those for a 5 year old.’

I disagree with this, especially in regards to cognitive understanding. It is not the ASD that causes this but often the add on conditions like LD that causes this.
My brother has autism plus LD and is effectively a very big three year in a thirty years old body but he is the exception rather than the rule for most children diagnosed.
Ds6 is on the diagnosis pathway as are a few of his school friends andare developmentally their ages except for those with LD. All of those I know have additional diagnosis’ too including my own son.

Often these children are the stringent rule followers, rather the rule breakers too.

Tbh op you are being used for free child care.

Your kids are not responsible for modelling behaviour. They do not need permission to do their hobby or have some alone time.

Her parents need to parent. Not throw their kid out the house and expect everyone else to do it. No wonder the girl cant behave she's never at home with her parents.

You don't need a reason you don't need to feel bad " not now" is plenty.

The mum is a CF. And unless she steps up that kid is going to get herself into some real trouble.

Ooh lots more responses! Thank very much. I feel a lot more confident about the situation now. Thank you for all your great advice. I needed to hear this stuff. Husband is lovely but not great with advice about this so it's fab to be able to talk about it with others.

I need to clarify that the child isn't actually in my home all the time, but playing outside with my two or they pop in and out of the garden. It's a safe cul de sac area. Also, although my kids rarely play in neighbours house, she does reciprocate in other ways. They do play in her garden sometimes and often she will provide them with refreshments. She often gives me lifts places and other neighbourly help. We do help each other out.

Tomorrow - it is not as simple as that. Both my son's have so-called 'high-functioning' ASD with no LD.

DS1 spoke in full sentences at the age of 2 and is at least cognitively average but has poor executive functioning. SALT assessment at age 15 of higher level language functioning (prediction, negative thinking, reasoning etc) showed actual skills of the age equivalent from 6 to 12 years in different areas.

DS2 is 'twice exceptional' and cognitively is on the 99th percentile. His maths tutor says that at the end of year 7 he is already capable of close to 100% at GCSE (he attends internet school and has covered the curriculum). However his mainstream with 32.5 hours 1:1 'failed' because he has very poor impulse control, follows his own agenda and ignores adult direction and instruction due to a lack of understanding adult authority and zero social desire to please. He is not a 'chair chucker' but his behaviour is severely challenging through Ghandi style passive resistance.

In the absence of detailed knowledge of your own child it can help to assume 2/3 development in the face of continued difficulty in relation to normal developmental milestones.

With ds6 I’d be amazed if he is still in mainstream by year seven. He’s also 2e and that is becoming more apparent by the year.

I think I'd respond with " an accident is something that happens by mistake not deliberately done then lied about - we need to go and talk to your mother now" - and walk her home and say similar to her Mum.

Otherwise it watch like a hawk and intervene – very firmly. Had a child like this come over – her mum was very wishy washy when telling her anything – had to step in and do a lot of intervening which surpsing her mother was fine with at least to my facen - she always bitched about teachers or other parents saying anything to her DD everyone was unfair .

I was friends with the Mum but it was stressful having the girl round so we got very busy and saw a lot less of them.

I don't think she has learning difficulties. I think she has more sensory issues rather than ASD but is being assessed for both according to her Mum. It's when she gets excited she seems to misbehave and starts throwing stuff around and lashing out. Otherwise there is no indication there are any issues and on the face of it, she seems like a neurotypical child.

Thank you again for all your advice.

Tomorrow 💐

It is very hard to find appropriate placement for 2e. M/s doesn't work - firm boundaries and punishment lead to anxiety. DS2 lasted till year 5 but LA insisted that he try m/s secondary. He lasted 6 weeks. He was then signed off by GP and now has personal budget to fund internet school.

DS1 was in specialist secondary but they are not academically challenging enough and are only set up for 5 GCSEs. SS don't even offer GCSE. His placement failed in year 9. In total he did less than 5 terms in 5 years. He also now has PB.

I have become a f/t carer and have no independent life

I thought your first post was spot on, Keepon, and I wish I'd read it years ago.

Tomorrow isn't autism defined by NAS as a neurodevelopmental condition? Social & communication difficulties/deficits are central pillars of diagnosis. If your child is meeting age-appropriate norms in all areas, isn't that basically the definition of NT? Mine has a social and communciation condition that makes it harder to leave him at parties and playdates than his NT peers. That's his autism, not an associated LD. He is not a 6 year old trapped in a 9 year old's body, but he does need more support than a typical 9 year old in some ways.

Thingie - both my son's have sensory processing disorder alongside ASD. NHS are beyond bad as NHS OT do not have post-grad specialist qualifications and have recently disputed SPD even exists or that therapy is effective.

Could her mum afford a private OT assessment? She would need to find a specialist who does SIPT assessment. This is not done in NHS and ASD assessment doesn't even include OT unless GOSH or private assessment eg at Elizabeth Newson or Lorna Wing.

My dd has sensory issues and asd so you have my sympathy. I know full well what my dd is capable of and will always ensure that Mums who invite her over know what to do. It sounds like your friend (the mum) is in denial about her dc behaviour. My dd will always say it’s an ‘accident’ even when it’s blatantly not. But that is a symptom of her behavioural issues.

You need to set boundaries with her mum, sit down and have a conversation with her about the times she can come to play and what to do when she has these ‘accidents’ if she’s being assessed for sensory and asd then the mum will have been given advice on how to deal with her and should be able to pass this onto you.

How is the child getting a diagnosis relevant to the issues the OP is getting?
A diagnosis isn't going to change the mums attitude or parenting skills and it's not a light switch for the child to start behaving better is it?

I don't think we have enough information to conclude that the mum's attitude or parenting skills are really that different to those of many parents of NT DC. OP judges her to be 'good enough' (she doesn't have to be perfect) but this is not working and impacting her DC.

Diagnosis often brings knowledge of previously unknown techniques eg through early bird courses offered to parents post diagnosis. Often though this is too little and too late.

Often diagnosticians require examples of problems experienced before they will carry out assessment!

But the good news is that, as a parent, you don't need an official diagnosis to implement behavioural and sensory integration techniques. Managing environment, sensory sensitivities and using specific techniques has a huge impact on the sorts of behaviour that the OP is reporting as problematic and make the relationships between the children and her relationship with the mother more harmonious.

This is a more compassionate response than 'ghosting' and will model appropriate tolerance whilst maintaining personal boundaries.

I think she has more sensory issues rather than ASD but is being assessed for both according to her Mum. It's when she gets excited she seems to misbehave and starts throwing stuff around and lashing out. Otherwise there is no indication there are any issues and on the face of it, she seems like a neurotypical child.

There is no point second guessing her diagnosis. She does not necessarily seem neurotypical to me - you are already picking up that one of her responses to you is stereotyped and meaningless - she does something that annoys you and says "it was an accident". The diagnostic assessments will figure out whether this is an innate communication problem or just a parenting issue. We can't. There is a good chance that she doesn't really understand "accident" or "play carefully" the way most children her age do, they are still vague meaningless words to her.

Which is not to say that you have to let her get away with things. Instead it's better to say "If you do X then you can't play with my children any more today / you have to go home / you can't play Y". Keep it simple direct and concrete.