To find my children's friend's 'accidents' really irritating

[Thingiebob]

My children have a friend who lives directly opposite. They are the same age, same school but in different classes. They play together all the time at school and in the evenings and seem to enjoy it. She's 8 and I really want to like her but I am starting to find her quite annoying. She does stuff that drives me up the wall and actively affects my two. I'm close with her mum and I really don't want to fall out as we will be living opposite her for a long time, but she is starting to drive me nuts...

She's not REALLY naughty but has a tendency to just do stuff for no real reason. When I talk to her about it she always claims it was an 'accident'. For example, she chucked my youngest's shoes into a neighbour's garden and made him promise not to tell me. He did tell me the following day in tears after I had searched high and low for them. (He is quite young) When I gently talk to her about it, she runs off home and then I have to deal with her mum who always comes over to inform me it was an 'accident'.

She often damages or breaks my daughter's toys so now I've asked DD to not take anything expensive or dear to her out to play.

She can be quite rough - pushing and grabbing my two quite roughly. I've seen it with my own eyes. It's not an accident but again she always insists it is when I ask her to be more gentle. They'll be playing a game together then out of the blue she'll just yank DDs hair. The other day she hit her between her legs. To make things awkward she is currently being assessed for ASD and Sensory Integration Disorder so I know we all need to be patient with her but some days I want to keep her away from my children.

Other times they play happily together for hours. Her mum has told me that playing with my two has made a real difference to her dd's social skills and confidence and I have seen her behaviour improve over time. I can see the child is benefiting, and I am very proud of my two for how patient and kind they are with her. They are also very fond of her and enjoy hanging out with her, but sometimes they want a break and want to play together and practice their shared hobby. On these occasions she cries, goes home and tells her mum my two are being mean because they won't play with her despite my two always suggesting she joins them. She hates their hobby and refuses to do it. I then get her mum knocking on the door telling me my two are ignoring her DD and could I have a word with them. This has happened twice now and I fear I am going to snap soon as I feel she is not entitled to my kids spare time all the time. Her mum ignores her behaviour.

I HATE that she irritates me so much. It makes me feel horrid as she's not a bad kid and she's had a tough time lately. She can be sweet, fun and good-natured and then she'll do something like deliberately draw all over DD's book or throw her food around. The other day she poured DS's entire juice carton down the drain... accident apparently.

Any advice on how to manage this sensitively?

Do you think that your friends divorce situation may be affecting this little 8 year old girls behaviour. as in making her angry at times. Eight year old children,can be unwittingly switched on to sad family situations.

If you were to say you didn’t want your dds to go and play at this girls house because you’d be concerned the mother would “gang up” on your kids if her dd upset yours in some way, I would agree. As others have said you cannot keep your dds away because she has an orderly, clean and tIdy house. Before my dd was born the houses I lived in looked like show homes. Not so much these days. My house is a family home. Her house is a family home.

Thr mother calls them accidents because she cant bear to consider they are not. Stealing shoes and throwing them into anotger garden, pulling hair and kicking, breaking things...not accidents. Choices. Choices fueled by impulses lacking control but still choices.

You need to stop agreeing on the use of accident when you know it is not. The mum may be having a terrible time but doing this wont help. Your dc will stop wanting to see her, as will others. Better a friend set boundaries and be honest then a stranger, such as another child's parent- which could happen if she does 'accidents' to them.

From age my dd with asd did improve her behaviour. But she was like that ( and remains a little like that) and I could see how she irritated people ( and me too quite often). You seem to be very kind and handling it well.
My problem would be with the mum. She can’t march over ever single time something happens. I’d tell her you’re happy for her little girl to play with your children but sometimes they like to do their hobby. Also that you need to intervene if something dangerous or damaging is happening without having her call over all the time. Emphasize that you are sensitive to the girls needs and won’t be overly strict.

It’s actually very difficult to change behaviour though. I agree that I never called them accidents or made light of my dd behaviour. It was beyond frustrating being told she’d done the same naughty things over and over. I worked extremely hard to improve her behsviour but still she isn’t a puppet and frustratingly does revert to her oils behsviour every now and again. She would have very poor spatial awareness too so very often hits people accidentally. She know she can’t swing her and around or she is not allowed to dance unless she’s 10 feet away from her friends. But she’s a child still and doesn’t always follow those rules. But the mom needs to let you deal with issues as they arise.

Let her host three children each evening- she is really taking advantage.

Pulling hair, scribbling on books and chucking shoes over the fence is not an accident and I think you're going to need to grow a spine over this OP. The summer holiday have only just started and unless you set some boundaries it's going to be a very long six weeks.

For starters, manage the amount of time this girl spends at your house and accompany her home after the two hours or whatever. If you don't want her hanging around all day, let her and her mother know that she's welcome to play in the morning, but in the afternoon you're going to have some family time. Also, the next time the DM says 'It was an accident', you should say 'Actually, it wasn't. I was there and I saw her pull my DD's hair'. You can say it gently, but this woman is bordering on being a CF, tbh. You're free childcare for her and I bet she loves that her socially awkward and hard work DC is over at your house so she doesn't have to entertain her. You can be kind, but firm. Think of yourself as being like a teacher - good teachers are kind, firm and fair and they have zero tolerance for violence or deliberate acts of destruction. And I would definitely call out both the DD and the DM for these 'accidents' that aren't.

Good advice Juneau

My DS has mild SEN and has done some of the behaviours you describe. He is overly tactile, clumsy, too physical, accidentally breaks things. However this helps me to understand his behaviour, but doesn’t excuse it. I have found simple rules, boundaries, as you said consistent parenting, have helped. He would do things like hug too hard. I have had to remind many times to be more aware of other people and to think before you act. Just because he feels like doing something doesn’t mean he should! I explained that some people don’t like being hugged, but that he can hug me and DH as much as he likes. He has a lot of tactile toys at home too. He has definitely improved.
I also would explain any social situations in advance, what would happen there, and expectations for behaviour.
I also didn’t let him go unsupervised on play dates until much older than his siblings, because I knew his behaviour could be unpredictable and I didn’t think it was fair on him or the other parent. If he broke something I always offered to replace it.
As he gets older I feel that I can’t keep making excuses for his behaviour and he won’t always have me around to manage situations for him (e.g. at secondary school); he needs to learn how to manage his own impulses.
He has made such progress and I am so proud of him. Three years ago I didn’t think I would be saying that!
So I don’t think this mum constantly excusing her daughter’s behaviour will help her in the long term. She is not learning that her behaviour has consequences.

Yes I suppose, I never allowed my dd on play dates either as I knew beforehand what would happen.

My similar experience of this is a few year’s ago my neighbour’s daughter came over to play a lot with my DD, sometimes daily, often in summer when she saw them in the garden. Whenever she came over there would be some accident / problem and it got tiring. However I knew her home life wasn’t too happy and she really enjoyed being at ours. I found I had to be much firmer with her than when other children came for play dates. I also called her out when I caught her lying. I realised she didn’t seem to know how to behave so I reminded her of the behaviour I expected in my house. To her credit she didn’t get upset when I did this, and she would often leave DD a note to say sorry if she broke something or hurt her. Eventually my DD admitted she didn’t enjoy playing with her any more. When she called round I would ask DD if she wanted to play or not. Sometimes I would say no, DD is busy / doing homework/ too tired. I think it’s perfectly reasonable to say your DDs don’t want to play some days.

My daughter is 11 and has ASD, and learning difficulties, so I hope that I get it. It can be incredibly hard to parent a child with Autism, and sometimes it is like walking on eggshells maintaining an equlibrium, as not to cause a meltdown. Which I suspect is happening with this mum of the girl.

However your children are not responsible for helping this girl, her mum is. If mum wants to help her social skills, she should find out local activities in her area, and see if her dd likes them. My dd goes to mainstream trampolining club, youth club, and choir to help her social skills. I also used to do short playdates at my house, with friends from her old mainstream school, and would always be aware of others feelings. If you don't want her dd there at your house, send her back. everytime there is an accident, send her back. You are not her childcare.

If mum is unhappy, tell her that your children like alone time, and prefer their own company sometimes, and toys are getting broken or behaviour is becoming too much for you to deal with, be honest. She sounds a bit CF ish tbh, and sends her dd over to yours for time to herself under the guise of 'socialising'.

I like the idea of teaching your DDs to say "no" and "stop squeezing my face" or whatever needs to be said. Otherwise there's no opportunity to change the behaviour. If it's repeated on the same visit - DD comes to you, or you intervene and it's hometime. You support your daughters' boundaries.

As far as the mum and her stories of how her DD is so upset - do not listen to the story of the feelings. Children learning self control are saddened by the discovery that other people have their own lives and thoughts all the time. It's a necessary part of learning a bit of empathy. Your role is saying "Throwing shoes into next door's garden is not an accident. Telling my children to lie to me is not an accident. It is naughty, and the second one is also manipulative and unpleasant." Sounds like Mum is quite manipulative; got you doing free childcare and socialisation and feeling this emotional labour is your family's responsibility.

It certainly sounds like mum is being a CF palming her dd onto others, I would never ever do that. Yes when she is at yours, and there is an 'accident' call her dd upon it, you have to instil boundaries. I do with dd always. She is first and foremost, a child, and does what kids do, she is not defined by her Autism, and some of her behaviour is because she is testing my boundaries as other kids do.

Part of that might be taking her dd back, and explaining to mum why!

I've been in a similar position as you OP

DS2 has a friend who was diagnosed with ASD 4 years ago (aged 5). His friend demands everything to go his way, accuses DS of leaving him out ( when DS is not wanting to play his game, with his rules etc). He has to know everything, and if someone says something he doesn't know he accuses them of lying. It's very draining but ultimately I understand it's all part of his ASD.

However what I don't accept is how his Mum deals with it. She thinks it's funny! Laughs when he aggressively shouts at one of his friends. Justifies his behaviour " well he does know everything!!". He'll do something then lie to his Mum who's response is " well he can't lie " as she's read that people with ASD can't lie. Her son even hurt mine once and I was expected to listen to her feeling sorry for HER SON . It was never ending

After 3 years of it happening pretty much daily, I snapped. It took a lot for me to tell her how it all felt and how it upset DS.

We didn't talk for several months - which was hard as we saw each other daily. I assumed it was because she was mortified. Instead it was because she was fuming that I had said anything.

It's massively affected our friendship. We talk now, but nothing like we did. However I feel better for it as I finally stood up to it all

So if you say anything, be prepared for the back lash OP!

You do need to establish some firm, unmovable boundaries or this wee girl’s going to dominate your entire summer and you’ll end up utterly sick of the sight of her...if you’re not already.

Juneau offers good advice, although I’d keep the visits to an hour. “Yes, X can pop over for an hour at 5” and stick to the hour with a 10 minute warning before it’s up. You need to create some distance and restrictions here otherwise you’ll never be rid of her. Her mum is clearly quite content to have you host her daughter and sees nothing wrong in letting her intrude on your space and time, so mum needs to understand there are conditions attached to the visits even more than her daughter does. That she keeps coming over to effectively complain about her daughter not being prioritised in your household tells you that her boundaries are much more blurred than yours and you need to take that control over your own household back.

My autistic children say this too. What they mean is that they didn't intend for the thing to break/drink to spill but I explain to them about thinking things through and being more careful. If it continues then I take toys away or ban certain games or say drinks can only be at the table etc.
Sadly you may have to parent this child a bit as the mum doesn't seem to be.

And if another child does something that I witness then claims "accident" I say "I saw you do it. Please don't lie to me". Once they know you won't take their lies they stop doing it.

It's a difficult situation, given her possible SEN, but she MUST have consequences for her behavior. She's EIGHT, not three, and letting everything be dismissed as accidents isn't helping her. As she grows, people will be increasingly less tolerant of bad behavior, and she will become more socially isolated if she is never checked.

Your friend may be under pressure, but she has no right to use you as free childcare all the time, particulary when your children want some time to themselves for their own hobbies. Why are they being unfair to do that, and you have to "have a word with them", but she is allowed to hurt, break things etc, and nothing is said? What is this teaching your own children? It's great to be kind and tolerant, but there is a balance. Be careful that they are not learning their needs are secondary. Being raised as a "people-pleaser" isn't great, as many MN members will confirm.

She chucked my youngest's shoes into a neighbour's garden and made him promise not to tell me. He did tell me the following day in tears.
That's not an "accident", plus she made him lie - that's nasty. Poor little boy, I bet he spent all night worrying about his shoes, and your reaction! Did you tell her mum about that? If not, why not?

She often damages or breaks my daughter's toys so now I've asked DD to not take anything expensive or dear to her out to play.
Again, she's not three!. She know's that things break if treated roughly. Show her Mum what she's done.

There's the whole summer holiday ahead. I would be setting some times when she can't come over, just to give your children a break.
As regards the friend's clean house - I bet it is, if she send her child over to you all the time (and from 9am on Saturdays! ). I understand wanting to supervise, though, so I would be looking at both of you taking trips out to the park etc, so her Mum is more directly involved in seeing what her daughter actually does. At the moment, she is getting her daughters version of events, and she's choosing to believe it.

P.s I know it’s so hard to confront and deal with something like this - we are a culture of polite and unconfrontational people where expressing yourself and taking a stand is almost ‘making a scene’ - but seriously, are you really going to spend your summer at the mercy of these neighbours for fear of rocking the boat? The mother will do nothing to curtail her daughter so you’ll have to...or have a third child causing mayhem every single day.
Be brave.

It is not op job to parent this girl, she has her own kids to look after. Whilst this girl is in op house she instills boundaries, if it gets too much, she takes tge girl back and explains to mum. If mum does not like it, tough, you might not be as close anymore.

I'm afraid this is subtle bullying behaviour and it needs addressing. Years ago I experienced very similar with a girl next door who would play with my son.
They know what they are doing and they are usually spoilt.l

This is the mums fault - she is making excuses for her child becasue of how she is and becasue of this, her child gets away with murder. I would put up boundaries - everytime there’s an ‘accident’ she goes home. Don’t make your children his child’s scapegoat.