To find my children's friend's 'accidents' really irritating

[Thingiebob]

My children have a friend who lives directly opposite. They are the same age, same school but in different classes. They play together all the time at school and in the evenings and seem to enjoy it. She's 8 and I really want to like her but I am starting to find her quite annoying. She does stuff that drives me up the wall and actively affects my two. I'm close with her mum and I really don't want to fall out as we will be living opposite her for a long time, but she is starting to drive me nuts...

She's not REALLY naughty but has a tendency to just do stuff for no real reason. When I talk to her about it she always claims it was an 'accident'. For example, she chucked my youngest's shoes into a neighbour's garden and made him promise not to tell me. He did tell me the following day in tears after I had searched high and low for them. (He is quite young) When I gently talk to her about it, she runs off home and then I have to deal with her mum who always comes over to inform me it was an 'accident'.

She often damages or breaks my daughter's toys so now I've asked DD to not take anything expensive or dear to her out to play.

She can be quite rough - pushing and grabbing my two quite roughly. I've seen it with my own eyes. It's not an accident but again she always insists it is when I ask her to be more gentle. They'll be playing a game together then out of the blue she'll just yank DDs hair. The other day she hit her between her legs. To make things awkward she is currently being assessed for ASD and Sensory Integration Disorder so I know we all need to be patient with her but some days I want to keep her away from my children.

Other times they play happily together for hours. Her mum has told me that playing with my two has made a real difference to her dd's social skills and confidence and I have seen her behaviour improve over time. I can see the child is benefiting, and I am very proud of my two for how patient and kind they are with her. They are also very fond of her and enjoy hanging out with her, but sometimes they want a break and want to play together and practice their shared hobby. On these occasions she cries, goes home and tells her mum my two are being mean because they won't play with her despite my two always suggesting she joins them. She hates their hobby and refuses to do it. I then get her mum knocking on the door telling me my two are ignoring her DD and could I have a word with them. This has happened twice now and I fear I am going to snap soon as I feel she is not entitled to my kids spare time all the time. Her mum ignores her behaviour.

I HATE that she irritates me so much. It makes me feel horrid as she's not a bad kid and she's had a tough time lately. She can be sweet, fun and good-natured and then she'll do something like deliberately draw all over DD's book or throw her food around. The other day she poured DS's entire juice carton down the drain... accident apparently.

Any advice on how to manage this sensitively?

Detach, detach, detach.
/Parent of a SEN child

What Cards said, especially this:

I'd probably say to the other child: "There have been too many accidents recently, so from now on if there are any accidents it will be time for you to go home."

Oh it's a tough one. I would say though that ASD/ADHD does not mean that poor behaviour should be ignored and excused. It's important to set boundaries. When you have seen what has happened yourself you absolutely should be honest with the mother and explain that it wasn't an accident and that you know that because you saw it. Don't be afraid to assert yourself in your own home either. Say "In this house, we don't... we do..." and if she can't or won't abide by that then she will have to go home.

It can be a delicate balance sometimes, being a supportive friend to a child with SEN. Of course, you want your children to be good friends to her but it shouldn't be at the cost of them being hurt or their toys being broken.

Ds had a “friend” like this, whose mother was so happy my ds could calm him down. The mother’s favourite saying was “boys will be boys” to excuse his behaviour.
I tried several things, including encouraging ds to give in, closely supervising, talking to the child, talking to the mother, nothing worked. Eventually, i “ghosted” her, ds was away for a couple of months, then I just stopped replying to her emails.
I think you are doing great teaching your dd to stand up for herself; it’s now up to you to stand up to the mother. I would just tell her “sorry, dd is not ready to play right now”, and would just repeat that until she gets the point.
In my experience explaining doesn’t work well in these situations.

It is s tough situation but I think you need to put your DC first. When the mum comes over to complain that your DC are being mean, what do you do? If you apologise, you are teaching your children that they should always give way to someone e else or otherwise they are bad.

I’d say to the mum that you’re going to have more quality time with your DC before they get too old to enjoy it, so you’re sure she’ll understand when you send DD home. And if she comes and complains that your DC are being rude, keep repeating that it must be a misunderstanding as YOU sent her home for quality time.

i'd missed the part where this child is over every day.

when on earth do you get proper bonding time with your DC, OP? they also shouldn't feel guilty that they are doing a hobby this other child isn't interested in.. they are allowed to have hobbies.

it sounds draining and self sacrificing to a damaging level, what is described here.

Thank you all for responding. It's really helpful to read all your replies.
So many of have said I need to set boundaries and in not doing so I am not setting a good example for my DD. You are absolutely correct. Any other friend that comes to play or my kids play with outside, I have no problem telling them off, but they are all robust enough to apologise and then they continue playing. This child looks like the world has caved in and runs off to tell her Mum, then it becomes a big thing so I've started to struggle.

Just to clarify, I have set a recent boundary which is they play outside, not in the house. So it is hard to observe behaviour closely as they are running around outside (it's a really safe area before anyone starts worrying!) or they play in my back garden.

As for over everyday - she isn't in the house having a playdate, she calls for my two and they go out and play together, but yes it is as soon as they gets home from school and I've managed to establish that she doesn't call before 9am on a Saturday.

Referring to the ASD comments, I think she does have impulse control issues. I really don't think it is her fault often but I also don't understand how much is in her control or not? My DD hates being grabbed and hugged whereas the friend is really tactile and does this a lot. Today I was outside, after posting this thread, and the friend ran over to my DD, grabs her face and squeezes it together. I've spoken to her about this before and so has my DD. I said to her sharply 'Don't grab DD's face, she really doesn't like it'. She looked so sad and apologised, but I don't think it will make any difference. She will do it again and again. It seems to be when she is excited. She starts grabbing, pushing and squeezing. Is this a sensory thing? My DD gets really pissed off with it and has started to come inside when it happens which I am pleased about.

Is it draining and self sacrificing to let your kids play with their friends outside every night? I genuinely am not sure as I've only recently allowed them to play out rather than just in the garden and they've made so many friends, and have so much fun. I'm loathe to stop it. They get terribly upset if I say they have to stay in, especially as the weather is so nice.

It's also awkward as our garden backs onto theirs so the friend can see immediately if my two are in the back garden and what they are playing.

Yes children with autism can be very very tactile. My son isn’t particularly but I worked with a little boy who wanted to kiss and cuddle me constantly (I worked in a school) and often couldn’t control wanting to stroke my arm. It’s really an impulse thing and completely unavoidable in the moment to a lot of autistic children, it’s hard for them to control sometimes what their body does in relation to what they want it to do.
She very well may be very excited and so squeezes her face... and is likely very upset that’s shes upset you and her and feels dreadful but can’t help herself and will do it again even though she’s devastated it won’t make you happy.

I agree maybe every day isn’t the best although if your dd like it I don’t see the harm. But perhaps had one or two days a week (set days mYbe) just for you and your dd.

The hitting and hair pulling isn’t okay though at all, I’ve always been firm with my son about hitting and not being gentle.

And I don’t see why they should stop though if they don’t want too, that would almost feel like punishing them. Unless they want to stay in I wouldn’t force them too.

I don’t think the mum sounds as nice as you say op. Accident or not surely you’d be mortified and offering to replace broken toys? And while you seem very keen not to say anything to offend she is happy to accuse your dds of ignoring hers when they’ve asked her to join in and she doesn’t want to.
I would be very wary of letting your dds play over at her house as well as they will be sure to be told off for everything as the friend can do no wrong in her mums eyes.
Stick to only playing outside - when your dds want to - and instruct them to come in if their friend is being unkind.
What do you say when the mum blames your dds and denies her child has done anything wrong? Do you tell her that you saw what happened?

My DD had a "friend" like this....she'd do things like throw DD"s new doll in the air and tangle it's hair up etc.

In the end I abruptly stopped letting her come over and stopped talking to her Mum. It was easier to do that.

Tbh I’d also say there is a strong chance the mother is also on the spectrum (dx or not) due to her behaviour and the strong genetic link.

I'd keep her visits short and at a time when you can supervise her constantly.

It’s tough one but your kids don’t need to be thrown under the bus for the development of another child.

THIS!

It's not fair for your kids to be miserable, in pain or lose their toys. It's not an accident, she's just learned to say that so she avoids any consequences.

They don't play over at her house for two reasons. One because I have two and she has one, so I don't think it's very fair for her to have both.
Secondly because she has a super clean house and frankly my two would mess it up in seconds! They're lovely but they're not sit down and watch a film type. They want to build things out of toilet roll innards and dig up the garden.

I'd rather they were in my line of view so prefer them to be outside or in our garden.

I don't think it is jealousy - her behaviour doesn't strike me as motivated by jealousy to be honest.

The mum doesn't really blame me as such, she comes over and starts off with 'I'm really sorry but X has come home so sad...' or she'll explain the incident and how what happened was an accident.

I agree that the “lovely and intelligent” mum really isn’t all that.

I think it’s more that she is spoiled than ASD. Like someone said up thread, even accidents have natural consequences. You should just answer, “ah, have you brought her back over to apologise? That’s lovely, maybe we can take care not to have that accident again.”

She’s come home so sad
“Yes, she must feel terrible after she hurt DD.”

Your first obligation is to your own children and you shouldn't feel guilty about wanting to protect them, it is not your or their responsibility to provide occupational therapy for this child or respite for her mother. If you let this go on, I think the warring senses of guilt/resentment you feel now can only get worse and sooner or later you are going to blow. You need to get this under control now. Agree with others, supervised or controlled play only when she's at your house with clear boundaries as to what behaviour is and is not acceptable. If she or her mother don't like it then she no longer gets to come over and you'll have to suck up the frosty atmosphere.

Follow your dd’s lead; if she wants to play outside, let her; if she’s done with her friend for the day, don’t give in to the other mother’s demands.
My dd plays with kids I’m not very keen on - especially her best friend’s little brother. I tell her to come to me if someone bothers her, but she tells me she’s ok playing with both her best friend and the little brother.
Just remind your dd that you’re there if she needs you, but let her manage the situation herself.
How old are the girls?

They don't play over at her house for two reasons. One because I have two and she has one, so I don't think it's very fair for her to have both.
Secondly because she has a super clean house and frankly my two would mess it up in seconds! They're lovely but they're not sit down and watch a film type. They want to build things out of toilet roll innards and dig up the garden.

Those aren't good reasons though. Of course her house is lovely and clean, because you are providing free childcare for her daughter every evening. It must be heaven.

You must be exhausted though, constantly taking of care of an extra kid and dealing with all these issues.

I don't know what to suggest though, except what the others have suggested about boundaries.

Please be firm and don't let her make you feel guilty.

TwoBlueShoes I'm just about to post something based on the exact bit you picked up on as well. Advanced x post apology!

*They don't play over at her house for two reasons. One because I have two and she has one, so I don't think it's very fair for her to have both^.
But what her child is doing at your house isn't very fair either: She's hurting and upsetting your children and breaking their stuff.

I get that you would want to be supervising closely (what with all the issues and all), but maybe it might work ok with your DC over at hers? Maybe she'd be more secure in her own space and some of these things might not happen? Worth a try, for sure.

I really think you should engineer this and see how it affects the dynamic. (withdraw if it doesn't work!)

I love IamPickleRick's post. Try those responses. They're very good!

I'm afraid if I saw someone else's child tip a whole cartoon of juice down the sink I would have taken her straight home and told the mum that I had seen her do it on purpose and that it definitely wasn't an accident and I would like it replaced before she came to play again- tell her the exact brand. The child wouldn't be allowed to play again until the mum bought the juice over. Those are the consequences of bad behaviour.

Next time, you may see her breaking a £7.99 Barbie wearing an air hostess outfit- you take her home straight away with the evidence and say the same thing. Every time you witness an 'accident' or any roughness the child will be returned home for the day. Every time something is broken you will expect it to be replaced with an exact replica before the child plays again. Say it is unacceptable that the child is saying she has so many accidents when you actually saw her breaking things on purpose.

The mother will either get very good at replacing things very quickly or you will be granted lots of lovely long breaks. It's also not unreasonable to say that your girls are happy just to play with each for a while, thank you. If the girl is sad then tell her mum she can spend some quality time with her herself to make her happy! Also, invite other children over to play and then just say that you are busy when she calls. Your girls and their possessions need to be protected, you need to not be annoyed by someone else's kid and all involved need to expand their friendship circle.

I think you should carve off time when your DC aren't available, and the idea upthread of setting explicit "house rules" is a very good one. Reinforce these rules by reminding her on arrival that the consequence for not following them is being sent home. Involve your children in setting the rules and reassure your children that it's ok to say if rules have been broken. Follow through, because if you don't, you're telling them that their feelings don't matter.

It may well be that the face squeezing is a tactile thing, but that doesn't mean your DD should just be expected to put up with it. You can also tutor your children how to push back and say "no" or "stop it, that hurts me" explicitly. My son is autistic and used to squeeze his sister hard, but that was absolutely not tolerated. As a parent I can address it by offering an alternative sensation, but that's harder to do in your position. Ideally you could mention it to her mum, but I realise you might not be comfortable doing that.

I really do think it's ok to take her back home with reports of what specifically she's done, or set a particular hometime. If you just put up with her until she goes home, you're basically waiting until she has something to moan to her mum about.

Btw it absolutely is fair for the other parent to have yours round sometimes. It doesn't have to be 50/50.

Re the juice box, and being "mean" accidentally - it does sound like they need closer supervision because of these incidents, irrespective of who is to blame, who's telling tales, lying etc. This could be an explicit reason to limit visits: the children are not getting on very well and there have been quite a few incidents, so we need to limit visits to times when someone (you or friend's parent) is available to supervise more closely.

I agree that your children are not there to be therapy for this woman's daughter. It's lovely that your DC have been good for her in terms of socialising and behaviour, but they aren't there for that purpose.

This woman seems to see your DC as her own DD's personal playthings, rather than children in their own right who need their own time to do their own things, not constantly be on call to look after and play with her DD. SHE is the problem here, and her sense of entitlement to your DC's time and energy is astounding.

You might benefit from have a set timetable of when this child can come and play and when she has to go home, rather than leaving it all open - especially if she turns out to have ASD, this might work in her favour, as some children with ASD prefer to have rigid boundaries (not all, obviously). Then you would give time warnings when it is time for the child to think about packing up and going home - 15 mins, 10 mins, 5 mins etc. so there is no sudden "awww but we haven't finished X yet" - well they've had 15 minutes to work towards finishing X so now time is up, off you go.

If her behaviour/"accidents" continue, then reduce the time she is allowed to play. Her socialising may be causing her some stress that she is relieving by doing something out of the norm of acceptable behaviour - one of my friends has a DD with probably pathological demand avoidance and her stress release was scribbling on things. Her mum eventually gave her a large scribble pad and blackboard wall, so she can go there specifically to do her scribbling, rather than do it on the furniture, books, toys or herself. Huge improvement!

Good luck - but boundaries are going to be needed, including and especially with the mother.

Right, my 4 year old has the impulse control/behaviour management of an 16 month old according to the reports. Boundaries and clear consequences are your friend here. We do three strikes or 'accidents' and you're on time out for play dates. She's old enough to understand that naughty behaviour equals going home, and definitely tell her & her mum that you've seen her doing it on purpose so you know it's not an accident. Don't let her mum excuse the behaviour.