To think that anyone who still believes in a positive Brexit scenario is nuts?

[PukkaLovetea]

I feel v anxious about where our shit shower of a government is leading us. I live in a city which is very pro-Remain (although my dad isn't) but I find it very hard to believe that most Brexiters aren't concerned about how negotiations are going.

Or is this just me, in my bubble?

I've got one. The Tories never get a majority again and we somehow manage to break the Tory/Labour stranglehold on our political system.

Oooo. I like that one ☝️

This could cripple British dairy farmers They are already crippled. But don't let that worry you.

do you believe expansion of the EU has resulted in positive gain or caused its own existential threat?

Eastward expansion of the EU was done to create greater security for existing members. At the end of the Cold War, there was a vacuum in Eastern Europe. The countries there were still susceptible to the influence of Russia, or capable of imploding. Working towards accession of the EU meant meeting certain stringent economic and political conditions in accordance with the values of the EU. In the sense of bringing those countries into the Western sphere of influence, away from Russia, expansion has been a success. In economic terms, the growth of Eastern European economies has provided a stronger market. Let's not forget, it's only relatively recently in historical terms that these countries have adopted a market-based economy. The transition has been very successful and the Eastern European countries are generally the fastest growing in Europe. It's a long game, but they may well overtake some of the original member states in terms of economic strength. Then we will be the ones looking to move there for work.

The UK was particularly in favour of expansion in the hope of diluting the influence of the Franco-German axis.

The idea behind Turkey joining the EU eventually is to extend the influence of Europe towards the Middle East and provide a stable "buffer" alongside a traditionally fractious region. However, it's got no chance of success unless things change drastically. Since Turkey first started the accession process in the 1980s they have achieved only one of the necessary acquis communautaires, and they've probably even lost that under the Erdogan regime.

No the Tories will be re-elected because one lot of hardline Brexiteers will blame the more moderates for not taking a tougher stance. The boundary changes to constituencies have made it much easier for Tory success.
Do we yet have a positive from a leave voter? A genuine, fact based, likely benefit - apart from Farage moving to Germany?
It’s not even a democratic outcome!

I am more hopeful about the chances of the Tories carrying the can for this. The whole referendum was about ending Tory in-fighting over Europe. Two years later and it's worse than ever.

The hardline Brexiters are not a majority and they never will be. Every age group under 45 preferred remain to leave and preferred Corbyn's Labour to the Tories. I am definitely not a fan of Corbyn but think about that for a second. Middle-aged, middle-class, home-owning professionals preferred Jeremy Corbyn to Theresa May.

That tells me that the Tories have fucked their long-term electability. The younger generations will never forgive them for this.

What like my dad never forgave the idiots who took us deeper and deeper, into the EU shit...

You mean the "idiots" who took us into the EEC and then the EU which resulted in a huge boost to our economy and massively increased prosperity after a period of sustained economic hardship? Those idiots?

mummy2017 please do explain exactly what the ‘EU shit’ means?

Is it better employment rights? Easier travel? Greater subsidies for poorer areas (section 11 funding)? Good food quality? Conservation of fishing grounds? Greater equality? Greater wealth and a stronger economy? Easier trade with our near neighbours?

It is damage limitation.

My mother, aged 93, voted to stay out initially and probably voted leave this time. In fairness, she fits the stereotype of WWC, low education attainment and originating from East Kent. Like most Brexiteers, if challenged she gets huffy and can’t justify her stance except to say we shouldn’t have given everything away. She can’t articulate what has been given away.

Reese Mogg has opened up a subsidiary of his financial company in Dublin

That (and Boris' expression on the day Brexit won) says it all.

Many people who voted for Brexit are naive. They were fooled by a slogan on the side of a bus.

They think Boris is credible and competent when literally no one who knows him thinks so.

They think they can't get a doctor's appointment because there are too many immigrants (rather than too few doctors).

They think rising crime is the fault of immigrants, rather than an underfunded police force, an insurmountable rich/poor apartheid and crappy comprehensives.

They think Juncker was drunk because it's just fun to believe that. Sciatica? Fake news.

They think Brexit will give power to the little man without realising the main backers of Brexit want to operate without the restraints designed to protect the vulnerable.

They think they can't make ends meet because immigrants are taking our jobs when that is simply not the case (and Brexit wouldn't be the answer if it was).

In many cases, they seem to believe that Brexit will make white British people more powerful than other British people.

They believe the Daily Mail (which is run by the kind of evil genius you wouldn't leave your dog with).

They think that Britain could have the clout it once had in the world if only Europe wasn't dragging us down (without realising we are mediocre and failing in many ways relative to many parts of Europe and Europe knows that).

They believe we're more powerful than we are because they want to, without evidence. They don't seem to have the capacity to understand that sovereignty without power and influence is worthless.

They don't care about Northern Ireland any more than they care about immigrants. They just don't give a fiddler's fart.

They simply don't care how the very real and impossibly difficult problems in all sorts of areas will be worked out. They either think it's simple with a 'let them eat cake' level of complexity or they just don't care. It's unfathomably irresponsible.

When this pantomime turns serious, they will be convinced it's someone else's fault. That the right Brexit was out there but someone didn't go and get it. I'd like to see them try.

In my 50s voted Remain. Mum in her 80s - her last vote before she died was to vote Remain. Don't assume all people over 40 voted Leave.

Don't assume all people over 40 voted Leave

Yes this.

My parents, great aunt and uncle, ex-inlaws all were very vocally remain.

Don't assume all people over 40 voted Leave

Yes, my 88 year old grandfather voted to remain as did several of my friends who are over 40.

While we're talking about ages, many older people did vore leave. However, I'm 61 and I and many of my fellow hard core Remainer, SabotEUrs as we call ourselves, as TM called us, are in that age group. Who saw the veteran in his 90s leading the People's Vote march last month. Thos who experienced WW2 as adults and know how the EU came about are generally Remainers.

Please don't forget to sign these: petition.parliament.uk/petitions/223729 and www.peoples-vote.uk/