To think that anyone who still believes in a positive Brexit scenario is nuts?

[PukkaLovetea]

I feel v anxious about where our shit shower of a government is leading us. I live in a city which is very pro-Remain (although my dad isn't) but I find it very hard to believe that most Brexiters aren't concerned about how negotiations are going.

Or is this just me, in my bubble?

Thread premise: There is no positive Brexit scenario.

Fervent Leaver: There is a positive Brexit scenario - namely that none of the negative Brexit scenarios proposed thus far are negative enough to concern me and furthermore, that the negative Brexit scenarios are going to result in hunger and hardship for the whole country, which is a positive!

And even though as I have stated a million times that I will just carry on no matter what I’ve worked too hard to deliberately vote my way into a scenario that may take that away from me. My main goal in life is to be able to leave my Son in a good situation and as I believe the European Union will collapse I voted to leave.

I don’t, I never said I did, I said I could.

But that is what you voted for. And even if you didn't think that was what you were voting for at the time, that should now be fairly apparent.

I deliberately dropped in that I was a single Mum and carer because I knew that even though most of you don’t have the balls to say it I’m pretty sure you sat there all smug with your theories that leavers are thick or not as good as you.

I really don't see how you being a single mum and carer is relevant to anything. It doesn't give you any special knowledge or perspective which makes you better than people who aren't single mums or carers. Not knowledge or perspective which has anything to do with the political and economic ramifications of leaving the EU, anyway.

Why do you keep banging this single parent drum? Why on earth do you think anyone cares?

Ironically I voted leave because I too don’t WANT to live through harder economic times. I believe that the Euro will collapse and that economic fall out from that would be bigger than anybody can perceive and will take decades to climb out of. I believe this from a collaboration of things I’ve read, watched, spoken with others about. Exactly the same way you have come to your conclusions about Brexit. Although I’m not “thick” enough to think I’m GOD and can see into the future so I don’t ram this belief down other people’s throats. No Brexiter, Remainer, or any human being can see into the future. Your beliefs are made from a bundle of things that other people said or wrote. Some appealed to you, some didn’t.

You have reached these conclusions based on your experiences. (Presumably your experiences of being a single mum and carer?) I have reached mine through having a detailed understanding of how the EU actually works (including a master's degree in EU law) and professional experience working in the civil service.

So no, not the same. Sorry.

So fuck off with your judgements about what will happen in the future are better than mine. Non of us know shit. We’re all just hoping we got it right. However I’m made of strong stuff and what makes me happy is my family and friends so I will live through all scenarios.

No.

Some people do "know shit". And saying we're all "sick of experts" is particularly unhelpful when the whole point of experts is that they know more shit than people who are not experts.

You’re not an expert because to be an expert you need to have experienced something. You have no experience of how this has happened before and the likely outcomes.

You’re not an expert because to be an expert you need to have experienced something

Better make sure that your oncologist has had cancer then.

What exactly is it that I don't understand about the EU with my master's degree in EU law and professional experience in the civil service in an EU-related area that you understand so well due to your experience as a single mum and carer?

Just wish people would have the good grace to put “I think” before any statement they make relating to the future. If you can’t do that then sorry but you are deluded.

Do you accept that not all opinions are equally valid? That some are more informed than others?

. I said most of the Country is lazy and overweight.

So who funds your SAHM lifestyle?

There are 32.4 million people in employment in the UK. By definition, those people do more work than you.

Just wish people would have the good grace to put “I think” before any statement they make relating to the future. If you can’t do that then sorry but you are deluded

Fuck me that's some irony

@Fenwickdream - we are not nor have we ever been in the Euro zone. If, as you predict, our nearest neighbour market collapses, we will be adversely affected whether we are in or out. If we stayed in and the Eurozone collapses, our currency would take a hit as would the dollar, the yen etc. If our Eurozone neighbours have to go back to using their own currency, they would do that with varying degrees of success. In or out we would not have to do this because we already run our own currency.

I’ve said my point but still you persist with your beating down of I’m more intelligent than you so I can predict the future. You can’t. There will be someone equally or more qualified than you who believes the opposite. Of course you’de believe heavily in the EU if you did a friggin masters in matters relating to it. That’s gotta be the most biased opinion you could get.
Listen I’ve got to go to work but like I said- you won’t change our minds. And show a bit of humility by saying “I think” instead of thinking your Stephen fucking Hawkins.

Fuck me that's some irony

[grin

I think you're struggling @Fenwickdream .

No I’m not, leavers sent struggling! We’re happy! You lot are struggling, you think the sky’s going to fall in! I told you at the beginning, I’ve formed my opinion and you wouldn’t change it. We laugh at your theories.

What happened to "I think"?

I’ve said my point but still you persist with your beating down of I’m more intelligent than you so I can predict the future. You can’t. There will be someone equally or more qualified than you who believes the opposite.

Who are these experts who think leaving the EU is a good idea? Michael Gove said he was sick of experts because they were all saying we should remain.

Of course you’de believe heavily in the EU if you did a friggin masters in matters relating to it. That’s gotta be the most biased opinion you could get.

I didn't the masters to increase my chances of getting a job abroad. (Not working for the EU, but working abroad in a country where having a master's degree is very important.) I chose EU law because it tied in very closely with the work I happened to be doing at the time and so it made it easier to juggle part-time study with full-time work.

There's no great conspiracy here. I did it because it was useful to me at the time, not because I live and breathe the EU.

But it did give me quite a lot of knowledge and understanding that most people don't have. That is a fairly uncontroversial fact.

Listen I’ve got to go to work but like I said- you won’t change our minds. And show a bit of humility by saying “I think” instead of thinking your Stephen fucking Hawkins.

Do you mean Stephen Hawking? Goodness, no. I'm not nearly as intelligent as him. He believed very strongly that we should remain though.

I won't comment on your grammar because that would be childish.

LiveInTokyo I’ll bite.

With your expert knowledge of the EU that surely covers everything (Though I’m unsure of how that is possible, an expert of its policy, foreign relations, trade, history or all of the above perhaps)

Enlighten me wise one, do you believe expansion of the EU has resulted in positive gain or caused its own existential threat?
Do you believe further expansion will benefit the current members?
Do you believe the EU’s indecisiveness attributed to the deaths of civilians in Yugoslavia?
What of Russia, is westward expansion wise? And do the EU joined with NATO hold significant blame for the annexation of Crimea?

Lets not pretend the EU is perfect, it should never have expanded... it might have actually been better to never let the UK join in the first place but hey ho the markets where in a state. I’d like to see a second referendum, but that seems somewhat unlikely given timeframes (and both Tories and Labour saying no).

I know lots leave voters who are delighted with the way things are going as they’d love to crash out with no deal and have the whole thing done and dusted.

They are well educated, free market capitalists of the older generation who are wealthy enough not to give a flying fuck about things like the NHS, small businesses, low paid workers, struggling families etc.

Some are really looking forward to the profit they will make from the misery Brexit will inflict on great swathes of the country.

They don’t have a moral problem with this. They see themselves as above the struggles of ordinary people and are bitterly ideologically opposed to EU regulation.

Discussion about the negative effects on the general populace as regarded as distasteful, embarrassing and distinctly déclassé.

These are the hard Brexiteers currently holding our govt hostage.

Interestingly, immigration is not really on their radar. It was just a handy tool to whip up the populist vote.

They have zero interest in improving Britain for the majority of the population. They just want to be allowed to maximise profits without being told what to do by EU regulations to protect workers and safeguard food and safety standards.

WarPigeon

I never said my knowledge of the EU "covers everything". I'm willing to bet it is a lot more detailed than most people's knowledge of the EU though.

Regarding EU expansion, it's a good question. Perhaps the criteria for letting new member states join should be more stringent and more rigorously enforced. It's always been ambitious project, it hasn't been done before, and no, they haven't got everything right. I don't think the UK has been particularly negatively affected by EU expansion. Economically we have benefited from it. Politically it's a more difficult issue because some people have a perception that EU immigration has undercut their wages. I'm not sure that's really borne out by the available evidence, but it's worth noting that the UK government could have made more of an effort to control the flow of immigration from eastern Europe following the 2004 expansion and chose not to. There are checks and controls that they could have put in place at any time, which are permitted Under EU law. They chose not to do so.

As for future expansion, each member state has a right of veto. No one is joining unless everyone else agrees. Further expansion can't be forced on any country. And Turkey will most likely never join because they will never meet the criteria.

Regarding wider issues such as Russia and Yugoslavia, the EU is primarily supposed to be about trade. Yes, there is necessarily come political cross-over. But one thing I find curious is that some leavers say "we joined an economic union, we never agreed to a political union", and then the next minute they're trying to hold the EU accountable for its political action or inaction in third countries.

You can't have it both ways.

Nobody is pretending the EU is perfect but overall, we are much better in than out.

We were originally invited to join along with the original six but we turned up our noses and said, "eww, no thanks". We then looked on from the sidelines for the next decade as the economies of the original six member states went from strength to strength before swallowing our pride in about 1960 and asking if we could join after all.

The French blocked our entry for over a decade because they said we weren't team players and were only interested in the potential economic benefits.

Maybe they were right, and we should never have been allowed to join.

A non condescending and well thought out reply, I stand pleasantly surprised (my text and grammar is awful at times as well, and you should see my handwriting!). I’m afraid we will have to disagree on the being “better off in” as long term I disagree.

In answer to the Ops question though I would have to agree there will be no positive outcome. Crashing out would be stupid, as would the current ‘proposal’. I’m one of those unpopular leave voters that would say second referendum or cancel it 😄

It's worth having a look at what leaders of the leave campaign are saying and doing. Redwood is advising Investors to move their money out of the UK, Reese Mogg has opened up a subsidiary of his financial company in Dublin.

Farage has ensured his children have EU passports, Lawson is ensuring he is safe in France, Farage has now changd his tune to saying that he never said we'd be better off out - he did.

Have a look at this blog from Peter North, editor of Leave EU peterjnorth.blogspot.com/2017/10/i-dont-like-this-brexit-but-i-will-live.html?m=1

Actions speak louder than words, eh Biber?

shall we remind ourselves what no deal brexit means?

8% drop in GDP
2.7 million job losses.

I can understand why some leave posters here don't want to talk about it.

It took me a long time but I did finally come up with a benefit to hard Brexit...

...eventually (after a few decades) UK politicians might have to own their own shit instead of automatically blaming the big bad EU.

That’s all I’ve got.