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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that anyone who still believes in a positive Brexit scenario is nuts?

216 replies

PukkaLovetea · 17/07/2018 22:16

I feel v anxious about where our shit shower of a government is leading us. I live in a city which is very pro-Remain (although my dad isn't) but I find it very hard to believe that most Brexiters aren't concerned about how negotiations are going.

Or is this just me, in my bubble?

OP posts:
bellinisurge · 18/07/2018 08:52

@HollyGibney Born in the sixties- can't see how life was better when I was younger. Don't mean materially although obviously it was worse then. In the sixties, people thought our country was better during the war. During the war people thought our country was better in the 20s etc etc.

MissionItsPossible · 18/07/2018 08:52

TF you on about, bellinisurge? Hmm

bellinisurge · 18/07/2018 08:56

@MissionItsPossible the fuck I am on about is that @sonlypuppyfat apparently wants to go back to when the country was better when she/he was younger. I'm saying that the 70s were pretty shit and people often harp on about how it was better when they were younger. It is pretty meaningless.

MissionItsPossible · 18/07/2018 08:57

My remark was in response to the ‘policing the thread’ comment, not that one.

bellinisurge · 18/07/2018 08:57

I think you have explained that well enough yourself.

MissionItsPossible · 18/07/2018 08:58

Erm , ok? ConfusedHmm
I’ll come back when the thread has moved on.

CherryPavlova · 18/07/2018 09:00

No sonlypuppyfat, it is not immigration that causes congestion in hospitals.
The causes are

  • lower number of beds per capita than any other G20 country. The number of beds have been reduced significantly over the past decade.
  • a much more frail elderly population than many other EU and G20 countries with U.K. lifestyle costing us dearly. Most admissions to acute hospitals are the frail elderly. They cannot be discharged due to shortages in care homes.
Figures around immigrant use of healthcare are tentative but not a huge part of the NHS costs. Health tourism is different to immigration and is not related to EU immigration so unaffected by Brexit. Visitors also get included in figures and are not related to either immigration or Brexit. www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/verdict/what-do-we-know-about-impact-immigration-nhs
InspectorIkmen · 18/07/2018 09:04

I think posts by sonlypuppyfat demonstrate perfectly the problem with everything about that damned stupid referendum. I believe a huge majority of people voted with exactly that kind of rosy-specs nostalgic bullshit in mind - they thought that the very next day it would be all rose-covered cottages, merry milkmen, well behaved children, morris dancers on the village green and none of those nasty furriners wandering the streets pillaging our glorious British God Save the Queen way of life.

This thought is SO fucking depressing. There really should be an IQ test before people are allowed to vote.

bellinisurge · 18/07/2018 09:10

@InspectorIkmen - I disagree that there should be a test before people can vote. People do stupid things and make bad voting decisions. What they need to face up to is living with the consequences. Sadly we all have to. But my tolerance levels have plummeted post Brexit vote as has my willingness to indulge people.

nervousnails · 18/07/2018 09:11

God, some of you need to get a life if you can be bothered to come on here and scold me

Charming!

gamerchick · 18/07/2018 09:13

OP was looking for an echo chamber clanging with the sound of bell ends

That's exactly why I pointed them to the Brexit topic. People are anxious and feel out of control and repeatedly rehashing the same phrases over and over again doesn't help anyone. It's been a good year since I looked at a Brexit thread and it's still exactly the same as it was at the beginning.

But you know what, I think we probably need to go through this for those leave voters who find it all boring to get enough of a shock to realise the consequences

Erm don't assume, I have not once said on here how I voted.

Op, head on over to the Prepper topic and learn about taking back control of your bubble if things go sideways. We are not tin foil hat wearing zombie predicting gun toting loons. We hope for the best and plan for the not so best

Yes! This is exactly what I'm doing. There's no point in wringing your hands over something out of your control but you can do something to help yourself. Our government can't be relied on to care for us.

Firesuit · 18/07/2018 09:16

Dairy products may become luxury items post Brexit.

I was just reading that article. It says that if there is no trade deal and we go to WTO terms then the price of dairy products will go through the roof due to humungous tarrifs.

That make absolutely fuck-all sense to me. Presumably these tariffs will be the British government taxing imports, not European ones trying to prevent exports. Therefore it will be entirely up to us whether there are any tariffs at all.

I assume the tariffs are merely the maximum we are allowed to impose, if we want to impose any at all.

Is it the case that that WTO can force the British government to tax imports, in which case they could presumable choose to return the money to the people in the form of butter vouchers, or use it for some other good purpose, or is the claim that we need to worry about this completely bat-shit crazy?

(It's entirely possible I'm wrong, willing to be enlightened.)

(And I say that as a remainer.)

80sMum · 18/07/2018 09:26

I have yet to see a single predicted positive outcome of Brexit from anyone who voted for Leave.

It seems to me that an awful lot of people who voted Leave did not understand what leaving the EU would actually entail and voted out for reasons that could never come to fruition. I see sonlypuppyfat as a typical example of that - casting a vote to leave the EU on a daydream scenario that has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the EU! I despair. Confused

Maryzsnewaccount · 18/07/2018 09:28

NHS hospitals may well be full of immigrants.

I wonder if you look, proportionally, at staff and patients, which group has a higher percentage of immigrants.

Maryzsnewaccount · 18/07/2018 09:29

Firesuit, my understanding about tariffs is that the British government will have to answer to those countries with which they want to have trade deals.

So it won't be the British government deciding what tariffs they will put on luxury cheese, it'll be the Chinese or US or whoever they are buying non-luxury essential food from who will dictate it all.

80sMum · 18/07/2018 09:30

gamerchick is there a Brexit topic? The topic that you linked to upthread was for the 2016 referendum, so no longer topical seeing as it was all done and dusted more than 2 years ago!

Motheroffourdragons · 18/07/2018 09:31

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

Firesuit · 18/07/2018 09:38

Firesuit, my understanding about tariffs is that the British government will have to answer to those countries with which they want to have trade deals.

So it won't be the British government deciding what tariffs they will put on luxury cheese, it'll be the Chinese or US or whoever they are buying non-luxury essential food from who will dictate it all.

But that's not what the linked article says, it says the tariffs will be automatic from day 1 due to WTO terms being in place, not due to future trade deals with other countries.

Also, I don't understand why would the US or China would care what tariffs the UK imposes on dairy imports from Europe?

AuntieStella · 18/07/2018 09:38

The referendum topic as linked is the Brexit topic.

You are correct that it started life as referendum topic, and that is how the link appears if you C&P it. But it takes you to the Brexit topic. Which has many active threads. It is not a backwater/niche topic.

And has considerably better debate that a thread that just labels one side as all thickos

80sMum · 18/07/2018 09:43

Ah, ok AuntieStella I hadn't clicked on the link, just saw that the topic was entitled 2016 referendum, so it looked a bit out of date!

JacquesHammer · 18/07/2018 09:47

I voted leave , I voted leave because I want this country to be like it was when I was younger

It was a referendum not a fucking time machine. Are people really this obtuse?

I don't want to feel like a stranger in my own country, we are not lazy bastards who need foreigners to do our jobs for us, that's just a lie to bring in cheap labour

Nope, we really are. You’re going to have a very big shock.

gamerchick · 18/07/2018 09:51

gamerchick is there a Brexit topic? The topic that you linked to upthread was for the 2016 referendum, so no longer topical seeing as it was all done and dusted more than 2 years ago!

Try clicking on it Wink

placemats · 18/07/2018 09:55

The article says that everyday staples will become luxury items due to tariffs under WTO, luxury cheeses are already expensive. There will have to be a new system of VAT, which the article covers and post Brexit British firms importing from the EU will find the cost soaring; this will lead to price rises and job losses.

reddressblueshoes · 18/07/2018 10:03

@Firesuit

The default tariffs mentioned in the article are what the EU currently charges on exports from outside the EU- so what the UK currently charges on dairy imports from, say, the US. The assumption is that's what the U.K. would default to.

There's no obvious issue with the UK not imposing tariffs under WTO rules, except: 1) British farmers would end up hugely undercut- WTO rules would mean the U.K. Couldn't say 'we'll allow exactly enough imports to make up the shortfall with what we produce': if they open the doors tariff free then WTO rules they're open to the whole world. This could cripple British dairy farmers 2) the WTO does impose restrictions on the non-tariff subsidies the gov can provide to agriculture so trying to make it up to farmers in other ways would be a big issue 3) there are also issues with controlling quality and standards.

EU dairy farmers will be fucked by this, but despite what people seem to think, there's not much the EU can do. The British governments ineptitude in negotiations has been shocking. The EU is not going to roll over on the basic rules of being in the EU, but instead of focusing on what can be negotiated- and there are very specific niche issues that will in practice make a huge difference- the gov has focused on domestic grandstanding.

You may not believe the sun or the mail or the guardian are impartial- read Irish newspapers and see how the Irish government is preparing. They're taking their oil reserves out of the UK. They've built a new port. They've started hiring customs officials. The practicalities are being discussed in a much more impartial way- and, btw, this is all on the assumption the NI border won't become as issue, they've explicitly said they won't start preparing for that. These changes will happen, there are ways for the UK to work around then but they don't have the trade expertise- negotiating trade deals has been outsourced to the EU for thirty years- and they seem to have exerted exactly zero focus on the complexities instead grandstanding to the EU and imploding politically.

What is sad to watch is how this issue just hasn't moved on from a leave vs remain one- two years in, both sides should be engaging with how crap the gov is being in actually negotiating these issues, but the papers, the public, the people who should be holding the gov to account are still behaving tribally. I personally think the most likely option is a v soft brexit at the last minute, but none of these options have been adequately engaged with and whatever happens there will be a huge degree of largely unnecessary bitterness and misunderstanding attached to the process.

FridayThirteenth · 18/07/2018 10:12

What is sad to watch is how this issue just hasn't moved on from a leave vs remain one- two years in, both sides should be engaging with how crap the gov is being in actually negotiating these issues

Yes, totally agree with this.

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