Remainer 'moral superiority'

[coffeeaddict]

I voted Remain but I dithered and I can see both sides of the argument. (Am I the only one?! Everyone else seems to be so polarised.)

What gets me, especially when I've read discussions on here, is all the very vociferous Remainers who talk as though they have a claim to the moral high ground.

I find the accusation that Brexiteers are 'racist' particularly weird. Europe is mostly white like us. How does race play a card? If anything, letting our borders open to all and every European (majority white) means necessarily less room for other people from different countries and therefore different races.

In fact, what is the EU? A band of rich, predominantly white countries banding together to be more powerful. Fine, this might be best for our trade and prosperity. It might be pragmatic. We might like feeling we could go and live in Spain one day. But that's not the same as being morally 'better'.

But a lot of Remainers behave as though they are inherently 'virtuous' and Brexit is inherently 'evil.'

I don't get it.

I didn't make this mess so i ain't clearing it up

Justanotherlurker I hope I'm wrong, I really do but like I said, and noone seems to want to acknowledge it, if we do need to secure quick trade deals, it will be at a price. We will be at a disadvantage, we are not negotiating from a position of strength so there will be deregulation and there will be compromise on employment rights, the NHS will be even more vulnerable and quality controls will also have to be compromised. I don't see how that benefits us. This isn't a leaver v remainer issue. This is an all of us issue. It's so frustrating that people still think that it's all about points scoring and 'who won'.

@CantankerousCamel

Even if the UK could get farming schemes going (by March?) it is impossible for the UK to produce sufficient food for the population. This has been the case since the 19th century.

The last time that the UK felt the effects of food disruption was World War 2. Even with all available land turned over to agriculture, there was insufficient food available. The weekly ration was 1 egg, 3 rashers of bacon, 2 oz. lard, 8 oz. sugar, 4 oz. margarine, 2 oz. butter, 2 oz tea, 1 oz. cheese, and the equivalent of £2 worth of meat.

It took until 1954 - 9 years after the end of the war - before the government could remove rationing. Since then, the population has greatly increased, requiring more land for houses, factories, shops, motorways etc. (and so leaving less land available for agriculture) so your suggestion is impossible.

seriously what’s your plan?

My preference would be for Johnson, Gove, Fox and the other Brexit cheerleaders to be called to account for their lies. There is no version of Brexit that will not result in severe economic and social problems for the UK, and the actions of these people have trashed the UK's good reputation abroad. My solution would be to abandon Brexit. I have waited for two years for the Leavers to come up with anything that remotely resembles a plan.

Forall, I'll respectfully disagree and say Remainers have a plan: it's to quite simplt remain.

'simply'

Why the friffing heck would Remainers have a plan?

Because it is never going to go back to the status quo for one.

So we either pretend that the ever closer union is right wing propaganda or we tackle it head on and lay out a plan on what our position is.

@Isitsixoclockalready

Trade deals is by default an us v them, and will involve a "price".

The deregulation of workers rights and NHS does kind of show your hand as being somewhat hyperbolic though, considering it was the EU that forced Spain to open up its healthcare to private enterprise.

Justanotherlurker - I hope I am being hyperbolic and I acknowledge that the EU is by no means perfect but if we go it alone then it would literally be anything goes - companies could be free to hire and fire at will, companies could pay peanuts, there could be minimal level of quality standards on food and products.

Let me make it clear again that I want to be proven wrong - I want brexit to improve our lives. Why wouldn't I?

More hyperbole?

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jul/19/liam-fox-trade-secretary-britain-brexit

I hope I am being hyperbolic and I acknowledge that the EU is by no means perfect but if we go it alone then it would literally be anything goes - of into a hyperbolic rant.

I think as a remainer we can say that it is not solely brexiteers that have succumbed to clickbait media and has no understanding of the EU.

Which brings it back as to why the OP was correct in her assertion, it has been proven throughout this thread.

Trade deals is by default an us v them, and will involve a "price"

No, this is the British/American view of how to negotiate. The EU came about by a number of countries understanding that you can achieve much more by cooperating and being flexible rather than following the age-old position of confrontation and dogma. It took two catastrophic world wars, but then these countries decided that a new approach had to be taken. Since then, most European countries have prospered. Countries cooperate, companies cooperate, politicians cooperate. In the UK, we are still treading the path of 'Us and Them'. Look at the UK Parliament, a two-party confrontational mess that has long since lost any contact to the real world of the voters. Other countries have multi-party parliaments. Some even survive with no actual government. Look at UK industrial relations and look at how European countries have worker representation on company Boards, how industries and unions have cooperated on financing training schemes and in lobbying for laws that improve conditions for employees, employers and consumers.

Then go and read 'Britannia Unchained' - written by the new Brexit minister Raab and Liz Truss and see how they want to destroy what little is left of worker and consumer protection, how they want to scrap trade deals and how they think that the way forward really is to bin all legislation and get the UK to work for peanuts in order to compete with India and China. They cannot do this while the UK is in the EU, which for them is major reason for leaving. Someone stands to benefit, but I don't see this being me or anyone else on MN.

More hyperbole?

Well done for doing some quick background research and picking up a CIF piece though, kudos and all that, I think you are not showing your inherent knowledge of the ins and outs of the EU and more playing party politics.

But you do deserve a pat on the back for the attempt.

Justanotherlurker, I'm not trying to be superior as per the title of the thread. Not sure what gave you that impression. Even supposing I were being hyperbolic, that is out of genuine concern, not from an attempt at placing myself above leave voters. I feel that you are trying to create division where there is none intended. The guardian is not 'clickbait' even if it's not your type of media outlet. I am genuinely worried that myself and my family and millions of other families, regardless of how they voted will be worse off. If you genuinely feel that I am worrying over nothing then that's all you need to say.

Havanananana - apparently it's just hyperbole.

Oh and justanotherlurker, that's not the first such article I've read - just the most recent but pat on the back for being patronising.

Angelicinnocent

I must admit, I have had similar thoughts. I also find myself wondering how the most aggressive remainers will react if there is a second referendum or people's vote on the final deal and the leavers win again or go for a hard Brexit.

this is the real reason why labour won’t touch a second vote with a barge poll because if Corbin did get in on the back of another vote then lost then we would have to have another GE all with the space of 3 years and labour would be finished

No, this is the British/American view of how to negotiate.

Really, you are honestly saying it is just a US/UK view??

Countries cooperate, companies cooperate, politicians cooperate. In the UK, we are still treading the path of 'Us and Them'.

This is some kind of retrospective idealism that I am not sure how to even counter this point.

In the UK, we are still treading the path of 'Us and Them'. Look at the UK Parliament, a two-party confrontational mess that has long since lost any contact to the real world of the voters.

Hence why we are in this shit show of a situation, we cannot pretend that 13 years was not true socialism labour and think we can just ignore it and still blame thatcher.

I feel that you are trying to create division where there is none intended. The guardian is not 'clickbait' even if it's not your type of media outlet.

You thinking CIF has not been driven by clickbait, division and rage baiting shows you are more about how out of touch than you care to admit.

Disregarding your link, you proclaimed that the NHS is protected with us being in the EU whilst also acknowledging that the EU is not that great and has shat over many national healthcare services by forcing privatisation, so, I think you are not that well versed in the EU and are just playing party politics, which kind of relates to the OP.

I leafleted for the Leave campaign outside my local tube.

Having been very active politically (for the Green Party) in the past, I was shocked at the level of vitriol and abuse from the public. We were spat at, shouted at, insulted and verbally abused by Remain supporters (although I must add that Remain campaigners were perfectly polite).

On any evening there would be from 4-8 Leave campaigners, over half of which were born abroad. A passionate West Indian leaver was always amused at being called racist by white middle-class Remainers!

But having suffered this level of abuse (mainly from men) I really can’t face the thought of campaigning in public again.

Despite being a passionate Leaver I would never dream of insulting someone with a different viewpoint. I am astonished that Remainers continue to claim the moral high ground when their behaviour on the street has been so abusive. The continued sanctimony and virtue-signalling sticks in my craw.

I may not have a university education but the idea that my views are less valid than a graduate are downright insulting. Until this referendum nobody has suggested that an election result is invalid because of the intelligence of the electorate – and yet I have heard this argument time and time again. And yet those that promote it would be the first to decry eugenics!

Why are leavers still trying to convince to how bad the EU is. The UK is leaving. You won. What are the benefits?

Then go and read 'Britannia Unchained' - written by the new Brexit minister Raab and Liz Truss and see how they want to destroy what little is left of worker and consumer protection

I have, and to be honest it lacks somewhat. But then again I acknowledge Jeremy Corbyn being somewhat Bennite and realise you cannot draw definitive political lines with being anti eu.

You have to go through so many mental hoops to justify your political allegiance shows we are becoming more americanised in our binay politics stance rather than us having more political nouse

Why are leavers still trying to convince to how bad the EU is. The UK is leaving. You won. What are the benefits?

This type of response is becoming a tired meme.