To issue baby name ultimatum?

[MarlowsGhost]

No idea if IABU or not to contemplate doing this, so looking to get some thoughts.

DH and I are shortly expecting our first child, a boy. I have a boys name I have absolutely loved for years, my absolute favourite by a country mile. No other name comes close, I’ve frantically searched baby name books and the names board on MN but I just don’t love any name like this one.

DH hates it. He can’t give any real reason, he just doesn’t like the name.

He has recently suggested using a family name as DS’s middle name, as it’s a family tradition. I’m not keen on this name at all. WIBU to say that we can use this family middle name, on the provision that we use the first name I love? I don’t want to pull the “I’ll be the one pushing him out” card but I feel if he wants this family middle name, I should get final say on the first name.

I'm not talking about sexism against men. I'm talking about sexism against women. Because it is sexist - TOWARDS WOMEN - to claim that mothers are the primary parent, that they bear the greatest responsibility for children, that they have primary caring responsibilities.

You are perpetrating an attitude that is actively harmful to women, and beneficial to men. Men gain financial advantage from the belief that women are primary parents. It is that attitude that leads to a society where it is routinely expected that women will have career breaks while men return to work after a couple of weeks of paternity leave. It is that attitude that makes women feel like they're letting their kids down if they go back to work or have a night off.

I'm all for a world where men ask women which surname they should give the baby but I'm much more concerned with creating a world where men and women have conversations about who will actually be the primary caregiver, and come to a solution that is best for them. After all, what benefits a woman more - the baby having her last name, or having a partner who is in every way an equal parent, who can be primary caregiver without her being judged for returning to work?

My DH is going to be the primary carer of our kids because I earn more than him and have better career prospects. We are going to split parental leave between us and then he is going to work part time to provide childcare. Don't you think that's a bit more important and beneficial to me than control over the name of the baby?

Evan is one of DS3's middle names, I really couldn't think of any boy's names I liked and neither could DH so we asked for suggestions off the other DC. They came up with his first name, Evan was from my maiden name (Evans) and Rhys from DH's DM's maiden name (Rees) and then our surname.
To be honest, I had to compromise on all my DSs names but I chose DD's names and DH just had to lump it! Luckily he really liked her first name but is a bit meh on her middle name.

My DH is going to be the primary carer of our kids because I earn more than him and have better career prospects. We are going to split parental leave between us and then he is going to work part time to provide childcare. Don't you think that's a bit more important and beneficial to me than control over the name of the baby?

I think if you spend nine months pregnant and then push a human out of your vagina, that you should then get to name that baby. I never said anything about who raises it after.

While I think it is brilliant that you have these ideas about how things will be after you have children, I think you should wait until after you have them to before telling people about the feminist utopia you will raise them in. You may find that it's not as simple as you think. It's easy to blame women for the sexist situations they find themselves in to be confident you will be different. Not always so easily executed though. The fact that men think they will put their name on the child is just as entrenched in society's views of parenthood as the idea that mum will be the primary carer and both indicative of the man's place in the home. So, no I don't think one thing is more important the other, they're both part of the same issue.

Does he get first choice next time?? The issue of 'pushing it out' is erroneous, it's something over which neither of you has a choice, if that is the defining issue then you'll sit on the moral high-ground for the rest of the child's life.

*Because women do have a choice over whether their baby has her surname or their father's!”

Err, so do men, but I rarely hear a man bring up the topic of “so which last name should the baby have?”, they’d just assume it will be theirs.

I like Evan and this will be u popular but after labour I think you have more right to have the final Choice! Let him have ugly middle name

The name should be a joint decision. Neither parent trumps the other actually.

While I think it is brilliant that you have these ideas about how things will be after you have children, I think you should wait until after you have them to before telling people about the feminist utopia you will raise them in.

It will be simple, because that's what we have decided. But I'm aware of how privileged my position is. I know that not every woman has a supportive partner and better career prospects than him etc. Which is why I want to change things so that every couple has the right to make those decisions for themselves, with the total freedom I have. It shouldn't be a 'feminist utopia' to have the freedom to make the best decision for your family when it's something that should be so attainable with a bit of an attitude shift.

Also - I'm not blaming women for sexist situation. I am holding you personally responsible for the views you have expressed, which I think are harmful. You're not simply saying that women often are the primary parent, you're saying you think that they should be, because they are the ones who give birth - that's very different.

I am sympathetic to your views about naming. Naming babies should be a totally egalitarian thing. But we should be challenging this whole attitude of 'mothers as primary parents', instead of perpetrating that attitude to score small victories within an oppressive framework. You can't simultaneously challenge the misogyny of seeing women as natural caregivers and use that very misogyny to get your own way in other things. The master's tools shall never dismantle the master's house etc.

Let's be radical about this and seek genuine equality by overhauling an outdated and sexist attitude towards parenting instead of accepting that attitude and manipulating it when it suits us. Because for every woman who gets to choose the name of her baby because she's convinced her partner that she is a more important parent than him, there are several others experiencing financial hardship and economic deprivation because they want to return to work but don't feel able to because society says they have to be primary caregivers to their kids.

I think if you spend nine months pregnant and then push a human out of your vagina, that you should then get to name that baby

Where does this end? Is this a specific rule re naming the baby? If so, why? Or does giving birth mean you also get to be in charge of other decisions? What makes naming different from being in charge in other ways? What's the logic here?

wellBeehivedWoman Well written posts

I loved a name and was dead set on it but because of a dickhead DP went to school with years ago, he wouldn’t have it and I have had to roll over and accept that. Life and relationships are about compromise.

Use Evan as a middle name, have two middle names and find a more suitable first name you both love.

There is absolutely nothing 'meh' about Evan. It's a beautiful name. However, I may be biased as it's my little boys name Like you OP it was always going to be Evan. I just didn't like any other name. My OH didn't love it but wanted a Welsh name as he's Welsh and Evan is Welsh so we settled on it eventually. I let OH pick the middle name.

I think if you spend nine months pregnant and then push a human out of your vagina, that you should then get to name that baby.

By your logic, you should also be the one who take full responsibility for the human thereafter as well. Since you pushed them out, you should do all night feeds, nappy changes, school runs, deal with all tantrums etc without exception. Why should you get to cherry pick how the father is involved? Surely you're a partnership or you're not. If you are going to be doing all of the above, then yes, you should name your baby, however you clearly have major relationship issues and should probably reconsider or the father isn't involved in the baby's life.

But sharron women DO end up being the ones to take full responsibility. Women are rarely non resident non paying parents. They rarely think, halfway through childhood 'fuck it gonna leave the family home for the sake of shagging a tighter body', or bugger off, or be violent, ad infinitum.
Why lumber a kid with a surname of someone more likely to do the above just because he provided the sperm?

I don’t agree with the bullshit logic that because I carried the child I get to name. Why preach about equality and use a line like that over something as stupid as enforcing a name you like?

Could you imagine a male trying to enforce such a thing on his wife? There would be out cry and yes I know men can’t carry children but my god the idea is absurd. I’d hate to be calling my child a name I really hate because my Wife decided to play the vagina card. The baby is as much his as yours, yes you carry it but he helped make it. Hence the whole 50/50 parent crap through I’m assuming this only applies to certain situations going by the ideals on this thread. 🙄

I think it must be a small minority of women who feel that they have the final call of what they name their baby because they've " pushed a baby out of their vagina " I've never met anyone in RL with this notion.

Men dont need to enforce their name on a baby, or having more power than women, because society already does that to them.
Lots of men 'help make' babies.
Doesnt mean much when it comes to paying for them or staying in their lives though. But hey, so long as his name is used, thats ok.
Doubled barrelled should be the minimum women who are unmarried accept.

Also - I'm not blaming women for sexist situation. I am holding you personally responsible for the views you have expressed, which I think are harmful. You're not simply saying that women often are the primary parent, you're saying you think that they should be, because they are the ones who give birth - that's very different.

Am I saying that? Would you be so kind to quote me then? It's just it sounds a bit like you're making shit up.

It will be simple, because that's what we have decided.

Also, please, for my own amusement, tell me about all the other ways you will be raising a child and the things you definitely won't be doing.

By your logic, you should also be the one who take full responsibility for the human thereafter as well. Since you pushed them out, you should do all night feeds, nappy changes, school runs, deal with all tantrums etc without exception. Why should you get to cherry pick how the father is involved? Surely you're a partnership or you're not. If you are going to be doing all of the above, then yes, you should name your baby, however you clearly have major relationship issues and should probably reconsider or the father isn't involved in the baby's life.

Well, if you look at the statistics most women will be doing all that anyway.

But unlike men, women will be doing all that while considering all the way they have to be "fair" and unsexist because women are always held to a higher standard.

And often then will be doing that while their child has their ex's name because tradition innit. Half of marriages end in divorce almost all women end up primary caregiver after the end of a marriage. Google how many men disappear altogether for a bit of an eye-opener.

And when it's their pregnancy they will get called selfish for letting their mother in the labour suite without their mother in law. And they will be told that he can tell all his family whenever he wants about his baby. No matter how risky or if she wants privacy. He can tell them when she's in labour. He can go out on the piss when she's too ill to move as long as he likes though as it's not his fault he can't give birth and she shouldn't be so pathetic for wanting him to stay alone.

There's only one sex getting screwed here, anyone else notice that?

I can see why he doesn't like it tbh

Then again if it stops another bloody Alfie in the world then go for it

Am I saying that? grin Would you be so kind to quote me then? It's just it sounds a bit like you're making shit up.

Yes, I think you are saying that. I think every sentiment you have expressed indicates that you think mothers should have more say over raising kids than fathers. And I think that's an actively harmful attitude which is used to oppress women by curtailing their freedom to make the right choices for themselves, while simultaneously making it easier for men to avoid parental responsibility.

Even the fact that you are so condescending about the decisions I've made about kids indicates this - that you think something about me being a woman will mean that the sensible decisions I have made won't be possible. You're refusing to accept that there could be a situation where a woman wouldn't be primary carer. Why is that?

Also, please, for my own amusement, tell me about all the other ways you will be raising a child and the things you definitely won't be doing

Call me mad but I think pretty fundamental issues such as who (if anyone) will be giving up work to look after a child should be decided before you get pregnant. My DH likes children more than me and is a more nurturing person generally, earns less than me, and has fewer opportunities for career advancement than I do. Not to mention that we couldn't afford our mortgage if I stopped working full time for more than a few months. It would be irresponsible and against both our wishes for me to be the primary carer of our children. I really don't understand why you think it's so unlikely that this will actually happen. This isn't me saying I'll only ever let my baby wear white or refuse to let it have sugar til it's 18 or sleep train it from 5 minutes old or any other decision that's dependent on the particular baby you have. This is a fundamental decision that all adults should consider before pregnancy - if you haven't assessed your financial situation and your and your partner's feelings about childcare and your careers and who will bear what responsibilities, then I think you're setting yourself up for huge difficulties. And I know not all pregnancies are planned and sometimes you have to make decisions in circumstances which aren't ideal. But if you are planning in advance to have a baby you should also be planning for the financials and for childcare responsibilities.

You must have a second choice name for a boy. What would you have called the second son if this one had been twins?

I must admit I was expecting something more interesting than Evan.

Even the fact that you are so condescending about the decisions I've made about kids indicates this - that you think something about me being a woman will mean that the sensible decisions I have made won't be possible. You're refusing to accept that there could be a situation where a woman wouldn't be primary carer. Why is that?

I'm not condescending. You are.

You are doing the "I'm not like other women" thing. All those women who are just too silly to have sorted out this patriarchy business. It's funny, because you have no idea what you are talking about. The truth is, it's not far different from saying your child will never eat sugar because you are still posting with arrogance about something you really don't understand. But you've decided you know more about what it will be like than those silly moos who just want to be mumsies

Lots of women (not most, obviously) make more money than their partners. Lots of women have ideas about how things will continue once they have children and then find that their partner doesn't actually want to be a stay at home dad, because surprise surprise it's hard work. Or that surprise again, it's a fact that stay at home dads do less housework than working mums.

We live in a gendered society that will make things significantly harder for you as a working mother and there will be ideas and expectations about what you should be doing that could work to break you down. I have no doubt that you will be a working mother if you say you want to, my point is that if you think your husband is going to do the bulk of the "wife work" because you know better, you're likely going to disappointed. That's what I was saying. You read something into my post that was not there, which was a stupid thing to do.

This is a fundamental decision that all adults should consider before pregnancy

Slow clap.

No other woman has ever done this. Ever. Well done you.

Agree with vulva

You are doing the "I'm not like other women" thing. All those women who are just too silly to have sorted out this patriarchy business. It's funny, because you have no idea what you are talking about. The truth is, it's not far different from saying your child will never eat sugar because you are still posting with arrogance about something you really don't understand. But you've decided you know more about what it will be like than those silly moos who just want to be mumsies

Don't be absurd. There is nothing wrong with a woman being primary caregiver if that's what she wants, but not all women make that choice freely and I think it's of fundamental importance that they have the opportunity to do so.

I didn't share my plans to suggest that I'm better informed or more sensible than other women. I shared them to show that I recognise that I am privileged to be able to make that decision, and to offer a counterpoint to your attitude that because women give birth they are automatically primary caregivers.

I'm talking about the need to dismantle societal expectations about motherhood and you think I'm sneering about women who make choices for themselves - and yet you're accusing me of reading things into your posts!!

We can do better than your suggestion that because our gendered society forces women into taking on caring responsibilities they should get a token consolation prize like getting to name the baby. That's a ridiculously small ambition when we could be blasting apart the whole idea that giving birth = automatic caregivers.

We can do better than accepting patriarchy and demanding tiny concessions within that.