To be so worried about creepy uncle that I'm scared to seperate from DP

[sparklyhorse]

My DP's brother is 48 and lives at home with MIL and always has. He holds down a basic job. He had no friends and has never had a girlfriend or been on a date. He's intelligent (has a degree) and he's attractive. His social skills are not great - he hasn't got much to talk about and says awkward inappropriate things - not sexual but more rude and abrupt.

I don't like the way he is around DD who is 3 and DS who is 2. He is very physical with them and plays tickling games and has them on his knee all the time. He has never been left alone with them but one time I was at DMILs and she popped out and I was alone with him and kids. I was busy with DS who was a baby and he took DD upstairs to the playroom. Nothing happened as I kept looking in and they were sitting next to each other reading a book but I didn't like it and I kept saying it was time to come downstairs but he ignored me. That rang alarm bells with me.

I'm not sure whether this is just poor social skills and him not realising the social rules and how careful a male relative needs to be around young children. Or something more sinister. But I don't like it and my alarm bells have been going off every time I see him with them being so physical.

I mentioned to my DP in the nicest possible way I didn't like it (i sort of made a joke about the brother ignoring me in saying it was time to come down) but he thought I was being ridiculous as its his brother and he totally trusts him. Anyway I got DP to agree that the kids would never be left alone with any man as a way to prevent anything (I'm actually happy for them to be alone with some men, just not creepy uncle but a blanket rule seemed easier to enforce).

Tonight we were round at DMILs and she wasn't home yet. We were having dinner there so I popped to the shop for some stuff. So just DP, brother and kids there. I was gone 40 mins. Get back and DDs sitting on couch opposite uncle on his chair with no pants or trousers on and legs spread. I was totally like WTF?! I said very loudly DD why don't you have any pants on. Uncle says oh she had wet herself. I take her out immediately and find DP in the garden doing some chores and ask him why DD has no pants on in front of a man. Sorry he says, she had wet her pants so I took them off and got distracted doing something else. I said it was totally unacceptable and he was a bit sheepish and found a clean pair of pants. DD then says it was fun sitting on my uncle's knee with no pants and getting fresh air on my vulva (both children know the proper names for their parts as I had read that being able to name the parts reduced the likelihood of abuse - I looked this up specifically as worried about the uncle. We've also read children's books about how our parts are private and no one else should touch them etc).

I've decided I want to seperate from my DP for many reasons but I'm worried about what might happen with the uncle when I'm not there. DP is weak, people pleasing and will also lie to avoid confrontation so I can't trust that he will supervise his brother with the kids. What do I do?

I feel I cant stay with him just on the tiny chance something bad happens as I'm miserable. But how do I protect my children when I'm not there? I realise this post might make me sound like a nutter but I don't have issues with any other male relatives or men in general. Other male relatives don't act like this either. And I have a particularly good radar for people so much so a large part of my job is choosing which senior executives to employ for companies I consult to.

I actually feel sick about this. What can i do except make rules that might not be followed and teach the kids about keeping safe.

I don't understand what the uncle has done wrong... not having a girl friend, being a bit awkward and living with your mother doesn't automatically make you a paedophile. You sound somewhat paranoid especially saying male relatives should be extra careful around children, and you don't like you children near most men that's ridiculous if you've got no proof to say someone is a predator.
By all means check your BIL past but don't automatically assume someone wants to hurt your children because they saw their privates, my daughter frequently walked around naked infront of uncles when she was little, no one abused her or thought to do so. Not all men are sexual deviants.

FFS. I can’t believe people are complaining about the OP being sexist. Child abuse is far more common than people realise, it’s usually a known person and it’s usually a man. Those are facts, not bigotry.

OP, I had an uncle who was very much like you described - lived with his Mum always, never had relationships that we knew of, was obsessive about certain things etc. I spent a lot of time with him as my nan looked after us while my mum worked.

I was abused as a child - but it was my father, not my uncle, who absolutely doted on us and would never have done anything to hurt us.

Having said that, I think you should trust your instincts - I don’t remember my uncle ever behaving inappropriately with us and if he’s doing things that you think are inappropriate then that enough of a reason to be cautious.

I think you need to speak to your dp again.

'Needing proof' and 'remembering not all men are predators' is not how you protect your kids from predators.
There are patterns of behaviours which are red flags. The more red flags you have, the more cautious you should be.

While its shocking that there are so many apologists on this thread, its useful to see what arguments they are using to make people feel they are overreacting. It explains why so many people don't trust their own judgement when it comes to their own or their childrens safety.

Ignore the crap being put on here OP- you sound level headed and entirely appropriate in your concerns.
What has happened would ring massive alarm bells for many sensible parents.

I can only really suggest taking advice from the NSPCC helpline.
Or try harder to educate your DP?
You could also consult a solicitor to see what you could arrange via contact agreement being put in place.
So horrible to not be able to safeguard our children because their other parent doesn’t.

And don’t feel you have to justify your choice to have kids with your DP. No ones business and many women choose to split up with the father of their kids for all sorts of reasons.
I hope you can be happier in the future as you deserve to be.

I thought you were just paranoid and overreacting (tickling and reading a book are normal things, usually) but it kind of weirded me out that she said she was "getting fresh air on my vulva" whilst sat on her uncle's knee. Weird thing to say. Does she usually pee her pants? Is the story plausible? Would you be as bothered if she had no pants on around female relatives?

Another one to say trust your instincts.

I’ll probably get flamed for this. Any chance you could sneak a look at the browsing history on BIL’s phone/laptop? If there are no indecent images of children, no harm done, you will just have to live with a guilty conscience. If you do find anything, you can report anonymously to the police and he might get barred from any unsupervised contact with children.

I am not suggesting this lightly, and this is the only scenario in which I would ever endorse snooping. Personally I would do it.

Op ignore people on here, and trust your instincts, what your dd said about being fun sitting on her uncles knee feeling the air on her vulva, was very inappropriate for a small child, and that would get my alarms ringing. Your dh should have ensured that she was properly dressed round her uncle, especially knowing your concerns, and I would be mad at him.

But I do think your over reacting, Uncle hasn't done anything a close family relative wouldn't do.

Really? I don’t know I single male relative or male friend who would be comfortable with someone else’s naked child sitting on them. Nor do I know anyone that would continue to stay alone in a room and ignore the mother when asked to come out.

For all the ‘sexist’ comments, I’m afraid that while of course, most men are not peodphiles, that vast majority of peodphiles ARE male. Most men are aware of that fact too and are more likely to be wary of other men taking care of their DC than females without taking it as a personal insult.

OP I would absolutely be the same as you. My advice would be to wait a while for the separation. Hang it out until you can have a proper chat with the kids and you can be confident they can speak up and speak out.

I would involve a Child Protection Social Worker who I am sure would be as horrified as you. You BIL and you DP are making you doubt yourself. You know what you saw, don’t let your children be alone with him. No normal man would let a child play on them with their genitals exposed. They would run a mile in case they were accused of anything inappropriate. I don’t like tickling either I think it is sbusive to tickle until a child can’t speak or catch their breath. Fuck him off

Other than being socially awkward the uncle has not done anything wrong. Your 3 year old was naked in front of him. This isn’t sexual unless you make it sexual. I think your mind is racing and you’re becoming anxious. However, you are their mother and what you say must go. If you divorce then as part of that split you must agree that he can only see his kids away from the uncle.

I just read that your mother and grandmother dislike your DH. Have you mentioned this to them and asked their advice?

In all honesty if I was you I’d be trying to keep the marriage going by whatever means until your kids are older. Why are you unhappy? Is it something that can be worked on?

I am amazed posters think it’s normal for 3 year old kids to sit naked on anyone’s lap really unless drying after a bath!

Actually I think context is everything and it depends on who the adult is. My 3yo DS sat on my lap for 10 minutes this morning when he didn’t have underpants on. I was cuddling him and talking to him. I didn’t even think anything of it!

What adult would be happy with a child who is naked sitting on their knee. That comment that the 3 year old came out with, is highly inappropriate. I think a lot of posters are ignoring the NSPCC no pants campaign, to keep privates private and to encourage children to do this. If uncle does have some SN, somebody needs to have a talk to him about what is appropriate. It is not appropriate for him to have a naked child on his knee.

Hi all and thanks for your replies. Having had time to reflect overnight I think the crux of this is wider than the BIL situation. Its that I can't trust DP to protect the kids. I also feel the relationship is untenable and I'm totally miserable in it. At one stage I was on anti depressants to cope with it and I don't want to carry on like that. I need to balance the effects of a poor relationship on the kids with any potential protection issues.

I despair of Mumsnet when people raise concerns about potential childhood sexual abuse. Many posts on this thread are stupid, ill-informed and dangerous. I don't think you can trust your partner to protect your DC from his brother. You cannot ignore your senses here.

I agree. No wonder 1 in 20 children are abused, if people on this thread are like the parents who don't protect their children. Better safe than sorry. Clichéd but true.

I don't like the use of the word "creepy" in relation to someone who sounds autistic. Being socially inept isn't "creepy". She should definitely have had clean pants on though.

I don't like the use of the word "creepy" in relation to someone who sounds autistic

He “sounds” autistic? He could just be creepy, ffs!

It drives me mad how you can’t have a thread about U behaviour without someone throwing around labels and diagnoses!

I've just been diagnosed and I recognise a lot of those traits in me, so shoot me.

Or was it my social ineptitude getting it wrong?

I don't like the use of the word "creepy" in relation to someone who sounds autistic. Being socially inept isn't "creepy". She should definitely have had clean pants on though.

I don't like women being told to put men's other people's feelings ahead of their own instincts. If OP finds him creepy then she is at total liberty to describe him as creepy. And someone can have Autism and be creepy.

Just because you happen to recognise some traits in yourself, doesn’t mean he’s autistic.

My nephew is autistic and isn’t anything like that.

He “sounds” autistic? He could just be creepy, ffs!

Exactly this.

Someone can have Autism and be creepy

And this.

This isn't about the BIL maybe being autistic - which if he were would mean that he's very high functioning if he has a degree and a job BTW. This is about him being inappropriate around a young child.

And whoever said that a 3 year old doesn't know if she's wearing pants or not, I don't know what sort of 3 yr olds you've been around, but they know fine well what they are wearing. And the comment she made about the fresh air on her vulva sounds like something someone has said to her and she merely repeated it. So whoever said that to her is a perv and should not be allowed near her.

Contact the NSPCC OP and find out how you can stop BIL being around your children before leaving your partner.

Having a child on your knee naked is a red flag, imo. Nakedness - all fine. Social difficulties - no problem.

There are lots of ways a BIL (or any other adult) can make it safe and comfortable for children, and your BIL isn't doing that.

I wouldn't pick a naked child up and put them on my knee, without their parents permission (there are some exceptions with parents that I've had specific conversations with about it). But this isn't the case here.

He's also making you doubt yourself by not coming downstairs when you asked, etc. That's a bit 'gaslight-y' I think. It might be designed to make you think you are being unreasonable, so then it's harder for you to intervene if your suspicions are aroused.

Sorry I haven't got any advice for what you can do post break up :-/ That's a tough one.

Agree you should trust your instincts, OP. And context is everything. My children sit on my and husbands laps naked because we’re their parents. But my BIL (and SIL, for that matter) would absolutely not be comfortable with them naked on their laps and would ask them to get dressed first (or bring them to one of us so we could help them get dressed if they weren’t listening).

Having been through the shock myself of finding out there was someone in my family who my children had been close to (but thankfully not unsupervised with) who had a history of offences against children, I would definitely encourage you to trust your instincts. No idea what to do in the case of separation (it worries me too though my dh and I are not contemplating splitting up, but if we ever did), but I would speak to a solicitor.