To be so worried about creepy uncle that I'm scared to seperate from DP

[sparklyhorse]

My DP's brother is 48 and lives at home with MIL and always has. He holds down a basic job. He had no friends and has never had a girlfriend or been on a date. He's intelligent (has a degree) and he's attractive. His social skills are not great - he hasn't got much to talk about and says awkward inappropriate things - not sexual but more rude and abrupt.

I don't like the way he is around DD who is 3 and DS who is 2. He is very physical with them and plays tickling games and has them on his knee all the time. He has never been left alone with them but one time I was at DMILs and she popped out and I was alone with him and kids. I was busy with DS who was a baby and he took DD upstairs to the playroom. Nothing happened as I kept looking in and they were sitting next to each other reading a book but I didn't like it and I kept saying it was time to come downstairs but he ignored me. That rang alarm bells with me.

I'm not sure whether this is just poor social skills and him not realising the social rules and how careful a male relative needs to be around young children. Or something more sinister. But I don't like it and my alarm bells have been going off every time I see him with them being so physical.

I mentioned to my DP in the nicest possible way I didn't like it (i sort of made a joke about the brother ignoring me in saying it was time to come down) but he thought I was being ridiculous as its his brother and he totally trusts him. Anyway I got DP to agree that the kids would never be left alone with any man as a way to prevent anything (I'm actually happy for them to be alone with some men, just not creepy uncle but a blanket rule seemed easier to enforce).

Tonight we were round at DMILs and she wasn't home yet. We were having dinner there so I popped to the shop for some stuff. So just DP, brother and kids there. I was gone 40 mins. Get back and DDs sitting on couch opposite uncle on his chair with no pants or trousers on and legs spread. I was totally like WTF?! I said very loudly DD why don't you have any pants on. Uncle says oh she had wet herself. I take her out immediately and find DP in the garden doing some chores and ask him why DD has no pants on in front of a man. Sorry he says, she had wet her pants so I took them off and got distracted doing something else. I said it was totally unacceptable and he was a bit sheepish and found a clean pair of pants. DD then says it was fun sitting on my uncle's knee with no pants and getting fresh air on my vulva (both children know the proper names for their parts as I had read that being able to name the parts reduced the likelihood of abuse - I looked this up specifically as worried about the uncle. We've also read children's books about how our parts are private and no one else should touch them etc).

I've decided I want to seperate from my DP for many reasons but I'm worried about what might happen with the uncle when I'm not there. DP is weak, people pleasing and will also lie to avoid confrontation so I can't trust that he will supervise his brother with the kids. What do I do?

I feel I cant stay with him just on the tiny chance something bad happens as I'm miserable. But how do I protect my children when I'm not there? I realise this post might make me sound like a nutter but I don't have issues with any other male relatives or men in general. Other male relatives don't act like this either. And I have a particularly good radar for people so much so a large part of my job is choosing which senior executives to employ for companies I consult to.

I actually feel sick about this. What can i do except make rules that might not be followed and teach the kids about keeping safe.

Trust your gut is all I say

If op had just said she had a gut feeling that bil couldnt be trusted then thats one thing, but its weird to use loads of none issues as if its proof and posters acting as if thats proof. Her sat knickerless is a none issue. She wet herself and her df hadnt put her in new ones yet.

Also totally unfair calling the dh useless because he trusts his brother.

@RebelRogue really? I think it sounds like she's being a protective Mum. I wouldn't be happy or comfortable in this situation either. I wouldn't want my DD sat naked from the waist down on her uncles knee. I would like to think he would have asked his brother to get her some clothes on first, not leave her sat naked.

One of the things that set her senses off was him reading to her DD while she kept checking up on them.

Nothing happened as I kept looking in and they were sitting next to each other reading a book

Phone the NSPCC, they are fabulous and will be able to give you some advice.

I think you are extropoliating from socially awkward and odd (and on the spectrum) to paedophilia which I have to say on the evidence you have given is a huge leap.
This ^
Additionally I think MarthaArthur and Booboostwo make valid points.
Your DC are likely to feel more empathetic with the situation at the family of your DP than you do, since you seem to struggle with the dynamics there. They have a genetic link with their Father. You must, at one time at least, felt DP was a good person to have a family with. Have you or him changed?

You do sound a little paranoid OP. If you trust your DP retelling of the events (that DD wet herself and it was DP himself who chose to let her potter about naked for a while rather than find new pants for her) then I can't see what the uncle has done wrong here? Children do have a habit of sitting in awkward positions! I also think you are being incredibly unfair to confuse your concern over inappropriate behaviour with her uncle's lack of social skills. Some people are better at adult interactions than others. I will also mention that if you truly think he may display some autistic behaviours then there is a body of thought that suggests some adults with autism relate much better to children than adults because of the lack of judgement and the fact that children are quite straight forward talkers, there's no nuances to misunderstand, no sarcasm to miss etc. The incident with the storybook could quite simply be an uncle enjoying spending some rare one on one time reading his niece a story. Perhaps he feels more relaxed and less awkward speaking with his young, non-judgemental niece than with other adults who may make him feel inadequate for his lack of social etiquette. Yes he absolutely shouldn't have ignored you but if you think his social skills are underdeveloped then I'm not sure why faux pas such as that would need to be interpreted as being something more sinister?

I'm not saying dismiss you gut feeling, but I am struggling a little to see why the incidents you mention are quite so worrying as you seem to think they are. The fact that you think men should behave differently around young relatives, that you have specifically taught her the proper names of her privates just so that she can accurately report back to you etc does sound as though you are disproportionately preoccupied with the thought of something happening.

how careful a male relative needs to be around young children Let's put aside your preoccupation with the uncle for a moment, are grandfathers, uncles etc not allowed to sit their beloved granddaughter or niece on their knee? Are they not allowed to sit in the garden while they play in the paddling pool in their birthday suits? All the young children I'm related to are frequently running around in some state of undress in this heat and it wouldn't cross anyone's mind to read anything into it or to expect male relatives to refuse to be left alone with them or to decline to interact with them in a naked state.

Only you know the situation and there may be a lot that you haven't said that justifies your concern, but I would ask that you try to separate your views on his lack of social niceties with the quite sizeable jump to thinking of him as a sexual predator.

OP you sound like a brilliant mum, please, please trust your instincts here. I’m amazed at how naive some previous posters are.
@MouseholeCat our reactions and perceptions are ‘gendered’ as you say, because unfortunately sexual abuse is gendered: 99% of perpetrators are male and 90% of victims are female. Please join the real world.
OP don’t let this man be alone with your children. His behaviour is highly unusual and you are right to be worried.

But the uncle hasn't done anything op

No - Thank goodness and maybe he never would but I know if my DD had no pants on then my brother would feel uncomfortable with her on his knee, on the other hand my friends brother wouldn't bat an eyelid as he's had her kids with him a lot since birth. So you can only go with your gut feeling - you say DP is weak so there's your key - insist that they have contact at yours or at a play area - once you've split just him straight "NO UNCLE" and tell him your concerns and threaten to go to social services and kick up a stink - he won't want to have family investigated so hopefully will comply.
As I understand it, giving children the correct terminology for body parts won't reduce the risk of abuse, but it would give absolute clarity when reporting inappropriate behaviour. 'He put his waggle on my fairy' could mean anything! Sensible to arm them with correct terms.
You might be wrong - Uncle may be innocent of attraction to children and just socially inept/on the spectrum - but his mother can look after him - not your problem. If your gut instinct is crying out to you then you have to listen.
I would call social services anyway and have a chat - see what they think.

@Buggeredpelvicfloor2013 and that's fine. I don't think a lot of people would. But would you straight away assume they are a paedophile?

Her issues are :

1. Him tickling DD and DS

2.him reading a book to DD 3.him having her on his knee with no knickers (how did that come about?) 4.him being weird

1. Him talking sexually when drunk at uni

Sometimes it’s difficult to explain a gut feeling - but I wouldn’t try and minimise that the OP feels this way and declare it “normal”. OP should trust her instincts, especially with something like this.

Thanks everyone for replies so far. Fortunately DP and I are not married so splitting will be easier. I know people are wondering why we got together. I made the kind of mistake lots of people make and I am hugely paying the price for it. Just after I met DP my father became terminally ill. I called it off with DP as not a good time but he insisted on helping me through things. I just took my eye off the ball and was wrapped up in my own family and time went by and he was still there (he was often there and does loads of tasks and I mistook him physically being there for him being useful). I was all over the place after my dad died ( he had pancreatic cancer and died a horrible death). My dad's biggest worry was that he wouldn't be around to be there for my mum and me and to make him happy on his deathbed i said I would stay with DP so no need to worry as he would look after me. My dad thought that was good as he saw how many tasks DP does. Unfortunately the thing DP does is tasks. He is emotionally unavailable and has very little emotional intelligence. He uses doing lots of helpful things to compensate for his social difficulties. My mum didn't cope wellafter dad died and needed loads of support. So it was a few years of bring distracted by all that and he was still there, visiting and doing tasks. I think I just got used to him. I had no energy or will to date again and my dad's death made clear to me I really wanted kids before it was too late. DP really wanted kids too so we went for it. I knew it wasn't going to go well when he was totally useless at the birth and didn't stand up for me at all when it was going wrong and they wanted to use kiellands forceps. DS was a contraceptive failure. We haven't had sex since DS was conceived and that was nearly 3 years ago.

Rebel it wasn't that they were reading a book together, OP already felt off about him which is why she was checking on them. What didn't help was her trying to get dd out of the room and him not listening to that.

Lots of things individually can seem like completely nothing, but nobody can grasp the feeling someone gets when it's written down.

And why should OP have to say she doesn't want dd alone with women either? It's not women, or indeed all men that OP has a problem with. It's one individual so she has said all men, so that it doesn't seem she is picking him out unfairly for now. No need to be silly about it. I'd be perfectly happy to seem sexist in order to protect my child in this way.

Did you say your dp hadn’t had a relationship until you, and he was 39?

If that is the case then his brother being single at that age isn’t wildly different to your own dp, is it?

It’s a tough situation because nobody here can tell you you’re wrong. The fact is: BIL could be a paedophile. Equally, he could be totally innocent and nobody can say which is right.

But that’s true of literally everyone, OP. Your own dp included!

Unfortunate. Disturbing. But true.

No pants rang alarm bells for you. But if your dd had been around your sister, for example, you wouldn’t have batted an eyelid.

What are your reasons for wanting to split?

If you separate from your DP I cant see how you can stop the uncle seeing them. Unless you could somehow get your DPs parental responsibilities removed, which would be next to impossible.

But I do think your over reacting, Uncle hasn't done anything a close family relative wouldn't do.

@sparklyhorse be honest..,you just want rid of them all don't you?

@RebelRogue God no, I wouldn't jump straight to that consequence.... Its the knickerless bit and the gut feelings I can't get past. I guess as a Mum, your gut feelings are everything aren't they and I can't imagine how awful it must be for the OP to be stuck in this situation.

Nothing happened.
You sound paranoid tbh.
I bet if he knew what you though he would be totally offended.
If you are unhappy then be guarded but don't use a lot of non issues to make him into a predator.

This situation aside, I find it really sad that you think male relatives should be careful and not be so involved. Sad for the children who will never have a normal experience with uncles, grandads, cousins, etc. And sad for the adults who (although completely innocent) will have to be aware of paedophilia every time they spend time with young relatives. It must taint everything.

I really don’t see an issue with a kid running round with no pants for a completely normal reason.

Your creepy BIL sounds like he has had ample opportunity to carry out abuse, and yet... there is no evidence of this.

I can’t judge because I’m not there... but from this thread, he just seems a bit odd, but not in a dangerous way.

I think you are looking too hard for abuse tbh. But your kids safety is your top priority, I get that.

OP just trust your instincts on this one. Why would an man be ok with a naked child on his knee. As Ferntwist said. However you do sound very paranoid about no males allowed alone with yiur dd, what about grandfather, father, etc.

A gut instinct are the vibes that somebody gives off, if uncles makes op uneasy, she shoukd act on them.

There's alot to be said for instinct. I think you should always trust it. It is better to be cautious.

I am not condoning your phrase of 'male relatives should be careful around children'. That somehow infers that all men are potential abusers. I'm sure you don't mean it that way but... it comes across like that.

As for separating... I think you would worry whether or not you were with your partner. You can't even pop out to the shops without worrying. When you separate you will most likely need to organise arrangements between you about days he has the children etc. Perhaps if you separate on reasonably amicable terms, you can say that you really don't feel comfortable with DC being around uncle?

Keep talking to your children about privacy, body privacy and make sure they know, if they feel uncomfortable at all in anyone's presence, that they mention it to you and or your partner. It sounds like they would tell you.

@summersnake
I'd say hang on with the divorce untillyour, kids are older...probably not what you want to hear ...but the best way of keeping them safe

Fairly dangerous advice. At what age would you say it was 'safe'? I was abused by close family members at the age of 10, 12 and 15.

After OP's update the cynic (miserable sod)in me wonders how much of this is "instincts" and how much is being able to cut them all off from her life .

Very sorry to hear that ,I love my caravan💐.
It's a difficult situation to advise on,and we are all just offering our opinions,..mine would still be hang back with the divorce...again very sorry to hear of your abuse x

Trust your gut instincts, something feels off. I would be absolutely fuming if I'd found my daughter like this and no male in my family would have felt comfortable either. It's nothing to do with being sexist, the vast majority of peadophiles are men, yes some women are but it's a lot rarer. I don't have any advice but I would try and be more assetive with bil at the time, not just with dp afterwards.