To be so worried about creepy uncle that I'm scared to seperate from DP

[sparklyhorse]

My DP's brother is 48 and lives at home with MIL and always has. He holds down a basic job. He had no friends and has never had a girlfriend or been on a date. He's intelligent (has a degree) and he's attractive. His social skills are not great - he hasn't got much to talk about and says awkward inappropriate things - not sexual but more rude and abrupt.

I don't like the way he is around DD who is 3 and DS who is 2. He is very physical with them and plays tickling games and has them on his knee all the time. He has never been left alone with them but one time I was at DMILs and she popped out and I was alone with him and kids. I was busy with DS who was a baby and he took DD upstairs to the playroom. Nothing happened as I kept looking in and they were sitting next to each other reading a book but I didn't like it and I kept saying it was time to come downstairs but he ignored me. That rang alarm bells with me.

I'm not sure whether this is just poor social skills and him not realising the social rules and how careful a male relative needs to be around young children. Or something more sinister. But I don't like it and my alarm bells have been going off every time I see him with them being so physical.

I mentioned to my DP in the nicest possible way I didn't like it (i sort of made a joke about the brother ignoring me in saying it was time to come down) but he thought I was being ridiculous as its his brother and he totally trusts him. Anyway I got DP to agree that the kids would never be left alone with any man as a way to prevent anything (I'm actually happy for them to be alone with some men, just not creepy uncle but a blanket rule seemed easier to enforce).

Tonight we were round at DMILs and she wasn't home yet. We were having dinner there so I popped to the shop for some stuff. So just DP, brother and kids there. I was gone 40 mins. Get back and DDs sitting on couch opposite uncle on his chair with no pants or trousers on and legs spread. I was totally like WTF?! I said very loudly DD why don't you have any pants on. Uncle says oh she had wet herself. I take her out immediately and find DP in the garden doing some chores and ask him why DD has no pants on in front of a man. Sorry he says, she had wet her pants so I took them off and got distracted doing something else. I said it was totally unacceptable and he was a bit sheepish and found a clean pair of pants. DD then says it was fun sitting on my uncle's knee with no pants and getting fresh air on my vulva (both children know the proper names for their parts as I had read that being able to name the parts reduced the likelihood of abuse - I looked this up specifically as worried about the uncle. We've also read children's books about how our parts are private and no one else should touch them etc).

I've decided I want to seperate from my DP for many reasons but I'm worried about what might happen with the uncle when I'm not there. DP is weak, people pleasing and will also lie to avoid confrontation so I can't trust that he will supervise his brother with the kids. What do I do?

I feel I cant stay with him just on the tiny chance something bad happens as I'm miserable. But how do I protect my children when I'm not there? I realise this post might make me sound like a nutter but I don't have issues with any other male relatives or men in general. Other male relatives don't act like this either. And I have a particularly good radar for people so much so a large part of my job is choosing which senior executives to employ for companies I consult to.

I actually feel sick about this. What can i do except make rules that might not be followed and teach the kids about keeping safe.

Maybe you can agree a rule with him that DC won't be left alone with any man and you wont let them be left alone with any woman?

The stuff in your post doesn't scream that he is a potential threat to me. He is not the one that took your daughters knickers off, in fact he had nothing to do with that. I've had a naked nephew bouncing on my knee before. With my husband's family it's perfectly normal for all the kids to be running around and playing naked, and if they want to sit on your lap to play or show you something, they do so while still naked.

But saying that, I'm a firm believer in gut instinct. There may be no malicious intent, but perhaps it's more of a problem of blurred boundaries, which in itself can be a problem. I would personally be laying down boundaries for the whole family and ensure I was there at all times around BIL. I don't think I would cut contact, but would only have access when you are present in the roon

I think if you want to separate you should. I also think you should trust your instincts re the uncle. However, you need to go into it realising your partner will probably still have contact and so still see the uncle without you being there.

I wouldn’t be happy about any child sitting on anyone’s lap naked with legs spread.

I’d go for reinforcing the pants rule with kids, dp, BIL and MIL. Nspcc has some great resources.

I'm 40 and have never had a boyfriend (had a few dates with a couple of guys in my late teens) and have a 'basic' job.

I tickle and blow raspberries on my friends 2 year olds tummy and sit him on my knee. I spend tie with him alone. He has been running around the garden in various states of undress because of the weather.

If I was male then you'd apparently think I was dodgy.

Things like this make me so sad, not every man is a pedo. I would hate for any male relative to not want to have fun with my daughter for fear of people getting the wrong idea.

I had a ‘weird uncle’ still lived at home in late 40s, no friends/girlfriend etc. He always took me up into his room and spent hours with me - taught me how to play his keyboard and did drawing etc.

God knows what people would think these days, your BIL probably doesn’t realise he’s supposed to be ‘careful around children’ and is just having fun and treating her as an innocent child without worrying you think he’s up to no good.

Sorry OP but I think you sound paranoid and ridiculous.

If your gut as a mother is telling you something isn't right it doesn't really matter about the details. The risks are so high it's not worth being wrong.

There is already enough for me to pull any contact if it were my DD without question.

I think you are well within your rights to put in place a rule around the DCs contact with this person with your DH and his DM. Even at the risk of upsetting them, the DCs safety comes first. Surely as a DM herself she will understand eventually... I wouldn't be surprised if it had already crossed her mind either.

If you are clear and consistent with your DH about contact with his DB hopefully it will get through and I'm sure if this does happen your DC will tell you and you can do something about it. Don't be afraid to be clear and forceful in how important this is and stand your ground when your DH disagrees.

Sounds like you need to be free of the relationship and that's a much bigger issue, I wouldn't let this interfere with that. Glad you've posted this OP to highlight how close risk of abuse really is in families...

Sorry your going through this you sound like a great mum.

sorry to trot out the old cliche but they both sound like theyre on the spectrum even just mildly

the social awskwardness inappropriate comments not having empathy loads of signs

doesnt mean hes a peado could just be no awareness-dp didnt see a problem as hes the same

pp saying the tickling, sitting in knee without knickers etc is normal, are not the same pp saying they were abused. I think that says something.

Maybe that a families healthy relationship with nudity (and tickles) is less likely to breed pedophilic tendancies?

For those suggesting nspcc thank you, that was really helpful. Had a look at website. 1 in 20 yes that's 5% of children in the UK have been sexually abused. So at least ome child in every classroom. Mostly by men and mostly by someone known to them. Am I really so paranoid? I've said from the start I could be completely wrong. I totally accept that. But if my gut says something isn't right here should I really take the risk? It would be so convenient for me just to ignore this, put it down to paranoia etc because I could then seperate without worrying about it and get out of a miserable relationship.

Trust your instincts Op (but not sure how that works if you want to split up).

Could you ask your DD sparkly if anything was actually said by the uncle when she was sitting on his knee - ask in a game type way?

Honestly to the people saying OP is being ridiculous and feeling sorry for the uncle - thats really not the priority.

If something did happen how the fuck would OP explain to her daughter that she had a funny feeling about her weird uncle but decided to take a chance because "not all men are pedos." 1 in 20 children have been sexually abused in the UK and I imagine that number isn't very accurate considering how many people keep it quiet. 90 % are committed by men.
That will be the reason why OP is more cautious about a man than a woman.

Your gut instinct must be trusted.

It's always them uncles innit!?

My ds is 3. And takes all of his clothes off most days. I wouldn’t think twice about seeing the neighbour dad holding him and I don’t think my dh would think twice about picking up naked nieces and nephews. But of course I can’t tell you to ignore your instincts.

As you say, OP, these brothers are probably both at least a bit on the spectrum. As for BIL, there is no evidence he is sexually attracted to children. The fact that he was completely ignorant of how the pants off situation looked is, for me, evidence that he's not trying to cover anything up. If he had designs on your DD, he would have acted completely differently. I think it does suggest someone with deficits understanding unwritten rules and guessing what others think (like 'this shirt is dirty and it needs to go in the wash now' or 'people don't like it when you stand very close to them' or 'we don't talk about sex in public as it's not appropriate'). Evidence of ASD for me.

If abusers came with a big arrow over their heads pointing them out, wouldn't that be helpful? I still can't decide if you're over the top worrying about abuse. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt as you say you've acted specifically because of finding BIL creepy, but for me you've landed on the wrong kind of creepy and that makes me wonder.

The only supportive thing I can think to say is it probably isn't a great idea to leave kids alone with someone who themselves has a childlike level of understanding of what's ok and what's not when looking after kids. Perhaps that's a line you can take with your soon to be exDP. Frankly, I feel a bit sorry for him and his brother. I know you've had a rough time, but please remember that your DP is human and about to lose the family life he has. He hasn't done anything deliberately to hurt you or make your life worse, he's just been inept and he probably can't help that. It's not fair to be angry with him for the choices you have made in circumstances he didn't create.

BIL has feelings too. If the kids like him and he likes the kids and you have no evidence that he's seeking to abuse them, it's not really fair to try to cut him out. Completely fair to insist that he isn't left alone with them, not fair to say he can't be around them full stop. He doesn't have much of a life, by your account, and I don't think you've got anything to justify taking your kids' contact with him away. You say your DP works best with general rules - so stick with the 'not alone with any man' rule. Keep it simple. If your DP is 'weak' and suggestible as you say, then rule might help protect them from an actual abuser.

Tickling to the point of distress is abuse. It happened to me twice as a child and again as a young teenager.

A friend, then non paying lodger, was great with kids - almost like a nanny. We asked him to leave because of his constant presence and lack of motivation to move on. I don't remember seeing him alone with children then, when we were young, but he's obviously had opportunity since.

He got 6 and is now doing another 18 years. The list of his crimes available on the internet is extensive and horrific. I would never have believed it.

I don't think sitting with your bits out is normal or appropriate unless it's a convention accepted within an unusual family situation.

Tickling to the point of distress is abuse. It happened to me twice as a child and again as a young teenager.

Where does is say that?

I agree with @allthatmalarkey that chances are he probably didn't mean anything sinister as he didn't act shocked or shifty when you came in. Many paedophiles are cowards and blame shifters but he seemed to just say it how it was?

They both sound like they are on the spectrum. However this does not mean he cannot be abusive.

I knew someone with Cerebral Palsy and a visual impairment that abused children. Many would've said he was not smart enough or fit enough but it doesn't take much to be able to be abused.

I think you should be weary but not make any outward claims as although he is socially awkward he may just be... socially awkward.

Where were your brilliant gut instincts when you thought the father of your children was a good catch?

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Allthatmalarkey I'm not angry with my DP as such just exasperated with his level of integrity - he is so conflict avoidant he will lie and he won't stick up for me or the kids no matter what.
I realise it's mostly ineptitude and not deliberate badness but at times he is horribly passive aggressive (since he can't express himself). When I see this being done to the kids it makes me really worried about how it will be if we seperate. He doesn't realise he's doing it until it's pointed out. Its damaged his relationship with DD more recently.
In terms of not blaming him for choices I mafe and circumstances he didn't create o agree. I'm responsible for what I've done and choices I've made. But surely he's equally responsible for his choices? He may not set out to hurt (unless he's in a passive aggressive phase) but he doesn't set out not to hurt either.

RebelRogue for what you said, I think for me, your comments seemed to take OP's words out of context and missing the gut feelings or oddness of the situations and just focussed on the literal facts of them. The same thing can happen to two different people and both can perceive it differently. It's the instinct or feeling that OP had in those situations that were most important, not the actual situation itself.

What I was trying to say was probably a gut reaction and hasty, as this is a topic close to my heart, and clearly yours too. I think this subject is way too taboo, and that helps it continue.

I'm sorry though, your name does sound familiar now I think about it but I don't specifically remember your other threads/posts off the top of my head

Read the book called ‘the gift of fear’

Never ever doubt your instincts. Do whatever you need to do to keep your children away from him.