... to think my son is a psychopathic monster

[Inmyvestandpants]

My DS (age 9) was playing out with his sister this afternoon in the paddling pool, with the hose etc. I went out after half and hour or so and discovered DD in the guinea pig run, cradling two very wet guinea pigs. It turned out that DS had turned the hose onto the guinea pigs, chasing them all around their hutch and into their little hidey holes etc. When DD protested, DS said he'd only stop if she let him do the same thing to her.

I was appalled. I made a big deal about how pets are for us to care for, and he had been very cruel to them. He says he didn't think about the fact they were frightened and cold, he was just bored.

I made him tidy his room (to get him out of the way while I calmed down a bit) then he had to clean and dry out the hutch, and replace all their bedding and I have banned him from playing with the hose all summer. He also has to clean out the hutch for the next six weeks. I did hear him apologising to the guinea pigs later on, and he cried about it, but I was utterly shocked by his lack of natural empathy.

What would you have done?

Completely bonkers thread (again) full of experts who would immediately incarcerate their own children on the back of one single incident.

FWIW, cruelty to animals is one part of a triad of behaviour proposed by Macdonald. The other 2 behaviours are arson and persistent bed wetting. This is a theory, not a fact. I think a lot of people have heard bits of this and are busily applying it with no knowledge of the intricacies of this. A child would not be diagnosed on the evidence of one single incident in the same way that a child who has a problem with bed wetting wouldn’t be considered a psychopath either.

The hysteria here is eye popping. Based on one single report of one single incident. Serious personality disorders are not diagnosed like this and not should they be.

I have been concerned about my DD1's lack of empathy at 9 years old. There have been instances of her picking one of our 4 cats up and throwing them. She's also trapped them in places they can't get out of. It's worried me a lot, especially as cruelty to animals is frequently seen in children who have been adopted. Other times she's very loving to them. This appears to have stopped now thankfully. She certainly loves them to pieces.

She's also hurt DD2 (6) and me too sometimes, whilst having violent meltdowns. At those times, she really doesn't seem to care that she's hurt us, she only thinks about her own upset.

This is largely because she's functioning at a much younger age emotionally, I believe. Her behaviour is that of a preschooler sometimes, or possibly KS1.

By contrast, DD2 (6) is very empathetic and takes on a caring role when she sees that someone has been hurt. She has said she'd like to be a doctor or nurse when she grows up.

It's not about age necessarily. A normally functioning 9 year old will know the difference between right and wrong. DD2 knows this at 6, but DD1 can't see beyond herself. She will be having therapy soon so I'm hopeful that this will change. In the meantime, DH and I have to supervise her carefully.

Godotsarrived You said “slap the hell out of him” that implies a beating. And the fact you are defending doing that the way you are is both shocking and saddening. “Son, we aren’t allowed to hurt animals but I am allowed to hurt you, a lot.” That is the message you are sending and I say this as someone who does occasionally give my four year old a smack on the bum.

This is not normal behaviour for a nine year old to exhibit. This was very harrowing to read. Please phone the vet for your poor guinea pigs and get your dd some soup. Maybe get your ds an appointment with someone to speak with and help him. ut bona fide.

godot and goodbye seem to have forgotten this is supposed to be a support site for parents.

This is one of those threads that makes me hark back to the old days of MN when there were less ott armchair psychologists; less Daily Mail headline writers and less gfs.

Please don’t use the word psychiatric in such an alarmist way

Why is it harrowing? For all we know the kid could have turned the hose into the guinea pig for a short few seconds in a misguided attempt at fun. He was sorry!! It’s not like he chucked them in a paddling pool to drown.

To leap to worries about pyschopathy etc is just ridiculous

Sorry, I meant the word psychopathic, not psychiatrist

What.a.load.of.tosh.

Lots of adults don't know the difference between right and wrong- even when it comes to something as seemingly straightforward as animal cruelty - or child cruelty come to that.

There is also a huge difference bw knowing something is " wrong" (naughty/likely to get you into trouble) and understanding the impact of your actions on the victims. Look at all the bullying/top dogging/queen beeing that goes on bw ages of 9 and 16 fi.

I think you handled it really well but YABU for your title.

First rule of parenting stay calm.

Second rule never leave a bored child unattended.

He is only nine and he now knows he did wrong.

I always think it's important to keep perspective so that a child who makes a wrong choice doesn't feel guilt and shame for years over something that was a bad choice when they were too young to fully think it through.

Get your DD some soup? In this weather?!

OP - Could it be that (without meaning to) you gave him the idea to see if hurting others can be "fun"?

Inmyvestandpants......... 12/06/2018 10:32
Now my DS is 9 and asks me what a kidnapper would do to him, and I don't know what to say. I've gone for " they would think it was fun to hurt you " - "why?" - "because they're not right in the head", but I don't think this has really satisfied him.

My niece put their cat in a deep paddling pool and nearly killed it, around the same age. She's not a psychopath it was a moment of stupidity when playing and even now she cringes that she did it. I think your response was correct. Keep an eye on him but I expect he's learnt a lesson. Poor piggies xxx

@Believeitornot the op says that he chased them around the hutch with it. That is more than a little spritz for fun!

I don't mean that you would normally expect a 9 year old to know that it's wrong to hurt other people or animals. I didn't mean all 9 year olds, as is clear from what I said about my own 9 year old.

The fact that bullying goes on (I was a victim as a child) doesn't mean that the perpetrators don't know that it's wrong. In the same way, adult criminals know that what they're doing is wrong but they still do it.

This is why there was so much debate surrounding the boy killers of James Bulger. Did they understand the severity of what they were doing? In other countries they would have been below the age of criminal responsibility. 10 years old is too young, I think.

It sounds like a thoughtless action rather than a deliberate act of cruelty

Its worth keeping an eye on - I would monitor him when he's around animals for a while to make sure this is a one-off. Many serial killers do indeed start with animal cruelty. However, many children do go through a stage of animal cruelty that they grow out of.

I recently went to a pony club event with a friend whose daughter was competing. The daughter completely lose her rag with her pony for refusing a jump and hit him several times, very hard. Quite rightly, the judge threw her out of the ring, and my friend now won't let her ride with a crop until she has shown that she can use the crop properly (i.e. a tap, not a massive whack). The daughter shows no other signs of psychopathic behaviour, but just went power-crazy and angry for a few moments. If properly punished (as you have done), this sort of behaviour can be stopped from going any further.

If you do think he is being cruel to the guinea pigs on an ongoing basis, please do rehome them and get him some help, but hopefully it was a one-off.

Well, this has been an interesting read. Thank you to supportive MNers who confirmed my handling of the situation. I am sorry that my sensationalist title probably caused some to overreact.

Mind you, I wasn't expecting to hear my DS called such horrible names. Shame on you.

I'm going to get both DCs far more involved in caring for the pets from now on, so that they get more empathetic and learn that different animals have different needs (and don't find the same things funny that we do).

That's a very good idea, @Inmyvestandpants it's what I did with DD1. She now regularly feeds the cats, which she really loves doing. It's a straightforward job for her, as cats will let know know when they're hungry.

She also loves to accompany me when I take the cats to the cattery or take one of them to the vet.

I do think children make mistakes out of ignorance very often and not out of malice. I've lost count of the times that I've said to one of them, 'They're not toys, be gentle.'

Why are you complaining that people have called your son names when you called him a psychopathic monster?? I don't think that either you or other posters should be calling him names but, as I mentioned in my earlier post, you should be keeping an eye on him to nip any potential for cruelty in the bud.

Why are you complaining that people have called your son names when you called him a psychopathic monster

Because I don't think what I said was as nasty as what they said I guess. Also, I was using hyperbole but I don't think they were. I wasn't asking for people to pile on my boy, I was asking whether I did the right thing, or if others thought the situation warranted different treatment.

Anyway, I'm not going to get into one of those stupid "you started it by starting the thread" conversations. Nobody thinks that "she started it" is an excuse for bad behaviour in real life, so why online?

Keep an eye on him but you handled it really well. I think children (and adults) sometimes behave badly as isolated incidents. Not great but it's patterns that are really concerning I think.
Be wary of well intended diagnosis on here. Only you know the full context and your son/daughter.
My own children have behaved appallingly when younger (particularly to each other). Very upsetting at the time but they are pretty well rounded young adults now.

@ablindinghighlight

The OP doesn’t know that he chased them around the hutch. Not from what I read. I read that she left them playing and came out to find that. Even so, people chase other people with hoses so I can see how a 9 year old, who’s still a child, may have made the logical leap that this wasn’t a big deal.

To leap to calls of abuse etc is ridiculous.

Because I don't think what I said was as nasty as what they said I guess

It was nasty. A mother to call her own son a psychopathic monster is over the top for something like this. Especially when your ds was upset and apologised by your own account.

Let’s be clear, op as a parent was stressed when writing post,accepts her language was hyperbole
The event,the parental reaction lead to poor choice of language.
However people on mn,were under no such pressure and some piled in being particularly unkind
So I agree Shame on you to the unpleasant responses