AIBU to say that I am a woman, not a 'non-man' 'non-trans woman' or 'cis women'

[R0wantrees]

I was born female.

I started having periods aged 11.

I started IVF in my late 30s and was diagnosed with gyny cancer.

As a result of the surgery (total hysterectomy) which no doubt saved my life, I have no uterus, cervix or ovaries and am childless but am fortunate to be well. My Gyny cancer was unusually caught at an early stage.

I know these to be uniquely female experiences and as an adult human female, I am a woman.

However, some activists with the Green Party have sought to use 'non-men' as a descriptor.
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/feminists-mock-green-party-young-womens-invite-to-non-men-a6987061.html

There has been assertions on Mumsnet and elsewhere to use the descriptor 'non-trans woman'
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3289890-great-piece-by-academic-kathleen-stock-mentions-mn

and not using the descriptor 'cis woman' is deemed by some to be transphobic.

Sometimes women have to say 'No!'
I think words matter
I think sex matters

In real life, it's not just women that aren't keen on cis. Lots of natal men would prefer it not be used as a descriptor at this point either, and for mostly similar reasons. So in some contexts it's really not a welcome term still, and I get that.

No it's not. My husband hates it. He says this is fucking stupid, we are women and it's offensive what's going on here. Not offended on his behalf but on ours. He wouldn't like it as a descriptor at any point.

@prawn -100%

Great post Prawnofthepatriarchy

so eloquently written! I shall be using this truthful a wonderfully simple way of putting a fact over

Woman is not an identity or a costume. It's a physical reality

This was my first AIBU and I felt a bit apprehensive about posting here. Thanks to all who were supportive of my personal circumstances.

It wasn't really about me though. It was about women and girls.

We don't have children of our own but are blessed with some wonderful young people in our lives and I do believe in the cliche that it takes a village to raise a child. I've also worked with many young people who have been inspirational in how they have overcome barriers and challenges.

I lurked on the FWR board for a while trying to understand what was going on. Just as these and likely many others have.
Thanks to those who patiently explained I have learned a great deal.

The Government's consultation on the GRA was launched yesterday and Janice Turner's article is really worth reading . So is James Kirkup's today which gives me hope.

It shouldn't be controversial to say A woman is an adult female human whilst also supporting the human rights of people who are transgender. The full extent of the ways that pressure has been exerted to prevent this truth will no doubt become clear eventually.

I think this video by @therealPosieParker says it all really

Awww thanks for including my video....

Much love to you.

I refuse to dance to anyone's tune whether it's SJWs, TRAs, Socialists or playground bullies within this movement. No one will ever make me doubt that only born women are women.

Liked your post so much, JoyTheUnicorn. Yes to it all. Why do we have to 'give up' space when trans women can fight for their own. Why aren't they making a fuss to make men give up some of their space for them?

I don't want or need any descriptors either; I'm a woman. Was born female, was a girl and now I'm a woman and always will be. Not 'Cis' or anything else - just woman. That'll do.

It really is infuriating. Why are women expected to kowtow all the time? Have their spaces, rights and even identities, eroded. For what? Trans women cannot conceive, give birth, breastfeed, menstruate or any myriad things that women can do. Why don't they focus on their own independent rights instead of trying to take ours and change what we are - we are not for turning, we are women!

FFS all this trans/cis stuff makes me want to stamp on my own eyeballs.

Thank you for this thread op
💐

Yes this really winds me up, glad I'm not the only one!

Gosh yes, that was really rude of me - sorry OP - thank you for the thread - and to the other posters too. I'd only skim-read and am going back to read more thoroughly now.

Thank you

Although I have mentioned how some in the Green Party used the term non-men (& just this week I have seen a publisher in using the term to catalogue books) it is a cross-party issue. There has been very effective lobbying of all political parties as well as major organisations.

#ManFriday have done a huge amount to raise awareness of how self-id was expected to be implemented. As a result of their first 'action' started here on Mumsnet, Swim England withdrew its policies and recently Hostelling Scotland have also reviewed their policies.
manfridayuk.org

They have been under sustained attack and subject to many attempts at smearing them, despite being described as the 'most polite protesters' by police at Hampstead Swimming Ponds

Woman's Place UK also have detailed how some Local Authorities had been mis-quoting (& perhaps mis-applying?) the Equalities Act 2010. Sex is one of the 9 protected characteristics, not gender. Most have acknowledged the mistake and changed it. It seems likely to be wrong in many public services and businesses.
(I recently looked at a relative's Primary School Diversity and Equality policy and it had the same issue.)

womansplaceuk.org/grassroots-womens-pressure-forces-local-authorities-to-comply-with-the-law-over-sex-and-gender/

@SwearyG & @Yesitsadebate from #ManFriday were featured on the last Sunday Politics show on BBC which should be available on iPlayer.

You can hear Sweary's 'Churchillian' speech at a recent Let a Woman Speak event in Truro

(from 1:06)

Dr Nicola Taylor from Fairplay for Women has being doing extraordinary work and was on yesterday's Today program on Radio 4 which James Kirkup refers to in the article I linked to previously. There are many resources and a huge amount of important information on the website.
They are crowdfunding to create materials.

James Kirkup also makes this important point:

"That fact is the reason Parliament and society accept the concept of single-sex spaces: women have a right to keep someone with a penis out of those spaces.

Upholding that legal right is possibly the founding principle of several women’s groups that have sprung up since the Government first announced its intent to make it easier for people to change their legal gender. Unlike the charities that lobby for transgender rights, the women’s groups — Woman’s Place UK, Fair Play for Women and ManFriday — have no corporate or public sector funding, and not much money at all. They are genuine grassroots political organisations that have sprung up from a concerned public. Those groups have made a difference. Back in the autumn, that point about female-only spaces was either often ignored or dismissed in political debate. Women talking about penises were ridiculed as bigoted cranks, accused of transphobic misinformation. Their meetings were subjected to violent protests (one person has been convicted of assault) and a bomb threat, threats that went shamefully unremarked on by most politicians. Nevertheless, the women persisted: the meetings continued; the campaigns went on; and it made a difference."

and concludes:
This isn’t a niche issue, a sideline interest for a few activists and obsessives. This is about how politics works. It’s time for the people who stay quiet to start talking.

Back in April Justine Roberts was interviewed in The Times:

"The founder of Mumsnet says transgender “thought police” are pressurising advertisers to withdraw from Britain’s most popular parenting website because it allows the discussion of trans topics.

Roberts said: “A significant minority of our users feel very strongly about women’s rights and very uneasy [about the proposals]. This is an issue that needs to be discussed and that’s why we’re prepared to take any potential advertising hit.”

Roberts said no advertiser had yet pulled out. “There is a section of the hardline trans side which thinks that any discussion at all is by definition transphobic, but we’ve explained we’re working very hard to keep it civil,” she said.

“We have some guidelines, we keep people within [them], we ban anyone that’s persistently mean and that’s the way we’re handling it for now. Hopefully we’ll be able to hold that line because we think it’s important.”

and this was the response
here on AIBU

The petition to parliament is still running, it prompted a response from Government at 10 000. It currently stands at 12 423.
At 100 000 it will be considered for debate in Parliament

'Consult with women on proposals to enshrine 'gender identity' in law
The government proposes to amend the law to allow people to self-identify as men or women, and to stop allowing organisations in sensitive situations to exclude people of the opposite birth sex. We call for women to be consulted on how to protect women and girls' rights, safety, privacy and dignity.

We call for:

• Respectful and evidence-based discussion about the impact of proposed changes and for women's voices to be heard.

• The government to consult with women’s organisations on how self-declaration would impact on women-only services and spaces, data-gathering, and monitoring of sex-based discrimination.

• The principle of single-sex spaces to be upheld – and where necessary extended.

The link is here: petition.parliament.uk/petitions/214118

You are perfectly free to call yourself any of your mentioned options. Entirely up to you.

I had my post deleted. I am asking for clarification on which bit of it was the offensive part, which as I have no idea which it was can't repeat it.

I think I know which bit it might be, the bit I repeated that someone else said and I agreed.

I sincerely hope that it was not the part where I said that this is the biggest threat to women we have ever faced. because it absolutely is and I am aghast that we are being erased as women.

I lived in Egypt. I know how fucked up a single nation is when women are marginalised and downgraded.

Not rocket science to put 2 and 2 together

I left an abusive relationship - with a HUGE help women on MN. I have rid myself of awful toxic parents - with the support and kindness of women on MN. I have thrived in my sport - with the support and humour of the women of MN.

If I am told now that I can't express my genuine and legitimate fears about what is happening to women and society in general...

it beggars belief.

Hissy
There is a current thread started by Justine here which may be relevent to your post:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/3297067-Mumsnet-moderation-response-to-yesterdays-feedback

I didn't see the other thread, only this, I have not ever wandered into Site Stuff.

this situation is terrifying. Women (and men) fought tooth and nail to establish some semblance of equality for women - it's still not there yet either, and won't be truly

Now we are not even to be called by our own term, Women?

If this were a relationship, if we were a person being denied our own name, being ignored and our belongings and spaces demanded and taken from us, we would be in a very dark and dangerous place indeed. Laws have been created to protect us in these situations.

Now this is happening to a generation.

I have no comment on what a person chooses to call themselves, on how they want to live in a society, their day to day etc. That is their path.
I won't tell them they can't be. You may not want to be a man, as you were born, that's your choice. Your choice, however, does not remove my right to be a woman.

terms like non man are a direct and clear threat to women.

I am staggered this is even a 'thing'

Hissy
The wider issues have been discussed on the FWR (feminism and women's rights) board on Mumsnet for some time.

Many people are unaware or only recently aware (I have only being so in recent months)

There is a thread which many have found helpful in understanding some of the complexities & background:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

Thanks

I don't post on the FWR boards, saw this one on active or trending or something.

Thanks R0wantrees for bringing this into AIBU. I am occasional poster on FWR and very rarely venture into AIBU - wuss that I am! I hadn't even seen this thread was on here and am late to the table.

Despite Justine's statement above that she was going to stand up to any MRA bullies in the sex/gender debate, the reality on MN has felt very different. New stricter guidelines that curtail what we are /are not allowed to say with regards to self-ID and although Justine started a thread to ease concerns, she has ignored many of our questions.

It has felt like those of us who are critical of self ID are an unimportant minority and that we are slowly being squeezed out. This thread on AIBU shows that is not the case. The level of consensus is huge (especially for AIBU!) that the vast majority of women do want to support trans rights but we still need to maintain our right to identify ourselves as a separate biological group.