Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to say that I am a woman, not a 'non-man' 'non-trans woman' or 'cis women'

247 replies

R0wantrees · 28/06/2018 10:56

I was born female.

I started having periods aged 11.

I started IVF in my late 30s and was diagnosed with gyny cancer.

As a result of the surgery (total hysterectomy) which no doubt saved my life, I have no uterus, cervix or ovaries and am childless but am fortunate to be well. My Gyny cancer was unusually caught at an early stage.

I know these to be uniquely female experiences and as an adult human female, I am a woman.

However, some activists with the Green Party have sought to use 'non-men' as a descriptor.
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/feminists-mock-green-party-young-womens-invite-to-non-men-a6987061.html

There has been assertions on Mumsnet and elsewhere to use the descriptor 'non-trans woman'
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3289890-great-piece-by-academic-kathleen-stock-mentions-mn

and not using the descriptor 'cis woman' is deemed by some to be transphobic.

Sometimes women have to say 'No!'
I think words matter
I think sex matters

AIBU to say that I am a woman, not a 'non-man' 'non-trans woman' or 'cis women'
OP posts:
Prawnofthepatriarchy · 29/06/2018 15:45

Brilliant, Glad! And of course farting is a spectrum. Perfect. Much more like identity politics than boring binary old sex.

womanformallyknownaswoman · 29/06/2018 16:51

It's even worse when you consider autogynephilia. And those men who have it and enjoy the 'forced feminisation' aspect and identify as trans.

Calling me cis is forcing me to accept restrictive/damaging stereotypes, whilst fetishising the concept of women who are forced to accept restrictive/damaging stereotypes.

It's a complete mindfuck.

YY and the confusion caused by the extreme gaslighting is taken advantage of to push non-men/cis/ men are women down our throat - and it all rubbish - yet so many Millenials and those in govt seem willfully blind to it and the implications - that this is an assault to get safeguarding measures for women and girls compromised - it's already happened with the Girl Guides saying guys can sleep in the girls' accommodationShockShock

The ominous echoes of totalitarianism and thought plus language policing are now embedded in policy, across the board, in govt., NHS, schools and anywhere where there are girls and women and single-sex spaces, with no critical thinking and no impact statements about the consequences.

It is dangerous madness.

Snugglepumpkin · 29/06/2018 16:57

I have a question.
If all the real women are not allowed to be called women anymore, but have to give up that word & be called something else, which for the purposes of this question I will say is Blah....
Then, won't the men who think they are really us, more really 'the people formerly known as women' than we are just want to change to be called Blah too, the same as the real (originally women, but not allowed to be called women in case of offending other people who wanted us not to be called women)
Where does this end?
Will we end up having to log into the internet every morning to see which word we are allowed to use to describe ourselves today?
Will all texts containing medical information have to be in ebook format so they can quickly be updated each time the word changes.

Will using the words female or woman become a hate crime?
(seems to be pretty close to that now)

If they want to identify as what we are, then surely they want to be called whatever the hell we get called, otherwise we are othering them etc... etc...

I don't want to have the word we've been fine with for however long we've been using it is taken away from me, but it doesn't matter what the word is, if that is the word that means woman/women/female, it is the word they will want to say they are.

SuperDandy · 29/06/2018 17:51

This is an interesting discussion. It's nice that R0wantrees has brought it into AIBU.

Mumsnet recently announced some guidance on what terms they feel are acceptable on these forums, which you can find here: www.mumsnet.com/info/trans-rights-moderation-policy

I think a lot of you will be glad to hear that mnhq would prefer that the term cis woman is not used, as some women find it offensive. It's great the mnhq are respectful of the wishes of some of their regular posters that the term cis should not be part of the wordscape here. personally, I don't have a problem with using it, but It's important to respect that others feel differently. In fact, I think this thread title is the first time I've seen it used in mn since the new guidelines came out, so that's nice fro all the posters who objected to it, and I'm sure they won't mind the OP having brought it up again.

Personally, I haven't seen anywhere the term non-man used to describe women, but I don't hang out with radical activists on that end of things and it's not in common useage outside that crazy neck of the woods sam far as I know.

Non trans woman is not going to get any traction either, because it's ridulous and unnecessary.

Language shifts are fascinating, and the younger generation seem to be embracing a whole lot of useage around gender that hasn't been used before. Who knows where that will go, but beyond a thought experiment, the word women is going to stick around.

starcrossedseahorse · 29/06/2018 18:00

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/feminists-mock-green-party-young-womens-invite-to-non-men-a6987061.html

Highly embarrassed for the Green Party (which I have voted for in the past).

ScipioAfricanus · 29/06/2018 18:35

I’ve consistently voted for the Greens in the past to mark my concern for environmental issues.

Who the hell can I vote for now, Greens and Labour have both lost their minds in an attempt to pander to the youth vote by throwing women under the bus.

SuperDandy · 29/06/2018 18:35

That link is from two years ago Star, and the green party's got a right pasting for it. Are they still using that form of expression two years later?

Aeroflotgirl · 29/06/2018 18:36

I am a biological woman, I was born Female and that's what I am. I totally agree.

Ereshkigal · 29/06/2018 19:38

In fact, I think this thread title is the first time I've seen it used in mn since the new guidelines came out, so that's nice fro all the posters who objected to it, and I'm sure they won't mind the OP having brought it up again.

In fact I think that this is the most concern I've ever seen about the use of of that word from a pro trans poster. It's nice that you get where women are coming from with their criticism.

SuperDandy · 29/06/2018 20:42

Eresh I have never used the term cis or the t**f label that is also disliked, not even from the very first times I've posted in FWR. That's a preference I have always respected, and I was very glad to see mn including them in the guidelines as not suitable in civil discussion.

There's no place for anything regarded as a slur in civilised discussion, and if one party feels it as a slur then that should be respected. I would like nothing better than to find civil discussion on the boards, instead of Swiss cheese that's left when all the stuff that's nasty one way or the other has been deleted.

At least I seem to have mostly graduated from being accused of trolling, coercive control and being a man or a TRA to actually being responded in a civil way. That's nice too.

I think I can live with being described as a pro trans poster, though I'm not in favour of self ID at this point and like most people I'm not a fan of labels. They don't help anyone with actually listening to what others have to say. Similar to slurs in that respect.

Figuringitout · 29/06/2018 20:47

Ok.. I think a lot of this boils down to a simple question, 'do you believe that the trans woman truly identifies as being female?' If so, what is the issue with her being referred to as a woman? I genuinely (and maybe I need educating) don't see how this affects anyone - other than the woman who wants to be seen as the gender she identifies with. People talk about 'safe' spaces. If you believe that the transgender woman is a woman, why are the toilets less safe if she is in there? Do you honestly think a male sex offender would see a picture of a woman on a toilet door and think, 'ohhh I mustn't go in there, that's a female space'?
I also don't really like the term cis, and don't see any need for it - but then I have no experience of being transgender.

SuperDandy · 29/06/2018 20:47

In real life, it's not just women that aren't keen on cis. Lots of natal men would prefer it not be used as a descriptor at this point either, and for mostly similar reasons. So in some contexts it's really not a welcome term still, and I get that.

It's not so much that I "get where women are coming from" as that I understand that language is important to everyone and if you use it with care you are more likely to be heard.

MiddlingMum · 29/06/2018 21:06

One day we will look back on all this nonsense with incredulity.

stopfuckingshoutingatme · 29/06/2018 21:09

Just fucking IGNORE
Sorry for your cancer and wishing you health

pinkgirl1234 · 29/06/2018 21:41

Eurrghhh! I've just got up, it's freezing cold, I didn't sleep well and I'm feeling tired and grumpy. This thread is making me even grumpier.

Although this made me laugh:

Today I pointed out to my daughter a field of non-bulls on their way to get milked.
😂 😂 Fabulous.

Cis makes me irrationally angry - or maybe my anger about it is perfectly rational. It can fucking fuck the fuck off anyway. WOMAN has sufficed for a long time.

pinkgirl1234 · 29/06/2018 21:46

I'm a non-frter too @Prawnofthepatriarchy*.

And I'm a vegetarian. 😂

I'm such a prude about it I even have to insert an asterisk.

I'm quite ok with fuck and cunt but not f*rt. 😂

HettiePeg · 29/06/2018 21:52

WTAFF????! I don’t care what’s deemed acceptable and not acceptable - I am a woman. I was born with a vagina. I have XX chromasomes in my dna. Therefore I am a woman. Do not call me ‘cis’ or any other made up bollocks.

dudsville · 29/06/2018 22:02

I agree with the poster who said she felt in the current climate saying trans woman felt an uncomfortable use of the word woman. I do not need to know if a person has had surgery from one sex to another. In the same way other people so not need to know if I'm married or single by my title. It's probably too late but they need a new word, and that word is important for health reasons but the rest of us don't need to know it. I don't need to refer to you by your sex.

MacaroonMama · 29/06/2018 22:28

R0wantrees sorry haven’t read the whole thread but...
love you on FWR, love you here. Thanks for your strength and your words xx

LookAtThatCritter · 29/06/2018 22:46

I’m a woman and I don’t want to be called anything else. TBH if someone started using another ‘gender friendly term’ I would be offended

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 29/06/2018 23:32

I think you need to work out what a woman is, Figuring it out. Because I define "woman' as "adult human female" and of course transwomen are male.

How do you define woman? Your definition has to cover all women, all transwomen but not transmen or* men. And you can't say "a woman is anyone who identifies as a woman" because it's like saying "a Snargle is anyone who identifies as a Snargle". You still haven't defined what a Snargle is.

Think about it. My mum, the Queen and a mum living in the rain forest are chasms apart in so many ways, but they are linked by their biology. There's no innate way to be a woman, no womanly essence. It's just being female and experiencing the varying ways in which our sexed bodies go through specifically female functions.

Woman is not an identity or a costume. It's a physical reality. A man can no more know what living and growing up female is than I can know what it's like to be a horse, though I spent years as a kid cantering everywhere.

As for "safe spaces", these are not the absurd student politics spaces. We're talking about the rare spaces where women are naked and vulnerable, which are sex segregated for women's safety, privacy and dignity. We don't want to lose these spaces and that means males, however lovely they may be, are not welcome.

We had an honour system back in the day, when very vulnerable transsexuals, mostly attracted to men and having had all the surgeries, were accepted in the ladies. But in recent years the trans community appears to have rallied around aggressive misogynists as figureheads. Now we're being told our safety, our boundaries, don't matter. Lesbians are told that unless they try lady dick they're bigots.

And women are right to be alarmed. After they installed gender neutral changing rooms the rate of voyeurism and suchlike crimes tripled. Even if all transwomen are saints (though the evidence suggests otherwise) if you accept anyone who can claim to be transgender then you create a loophole. And we know loopholes attract
predators.

Males have no place in women only spaces. That's safeguarding 101. The UN is prioritizing safe areas where women can wash and relieve themselves away from prying eyes and rape in refugee camps. And yet here we are in ,2018, trying to get rid of such spaces - to make women's facilities unisex by default, while the mens remain the same, just for men (as the transmen seem to carry on using female spaces, and who can blame them).

pinkgirl1234 · 30/06/2018 02:59

"Non-men" is just outrageous.

echt · 30/06/2018 07:08

Just propose "non-white" as a substitute for any other race and see where that would get you.

Fuckers.

numptynuts · 30/06/2018 07:24

Why aren't men called 'women with willies?!'

😂. They wish.......😎

numptynuts · 30/06/2018 07:27

I'm going to repeat what other PPs have said:

Transwomen are MEN.

I am a woman. Full. bloody. Stop.