by 'devastating ' my DM?

[RapunzelsRealMom]

A little bit of background:
DM has helped with some childcare over the years. This has been a help, to a degree, but often more of a hindrance re her overstepping boundaries. The main reason she did it was for ‘alone time’ with DCs.

About a year ago she was diagnosed with cancer. Thank goodness she is now well and has finished her treatment. Her day to day life is back to normal (more or less) but she’s still not quite ‘herself’. By this, I mean that she’s not as aware of things, she’s talked to me about chemo brain, asked if side effects to her drugs included confusion. She walked out onto the road the other day with DC (age5) when I told her a van was coming. There’s more but that’s the gist.

So she asked me if she can go back to looking after the kids. DH and I have talked and talked about this! We are both in agreement, for the reasons above plus others, that this can’t happen.

I practiced what to say and how to say it in as kind a way as possible, and then put it away to the back of my head, dreading the day we’d have to talk about it.

Basically, she is devastated. She categorically denied everything I said, claimed that I was entirely wrong on every example i gave. It was excruciating. She is devastated and it's my fault, as you can imagine (not DH, of course, it's all me).

I thought she’s understand once she’d had a chance to think about it but, the following day, I took a Father’s Day gift round for DSF and it was awful! He didn’t speak to me, apart from saying thank you. She couldn’t even look at me. The atmosphere was dreadful and helped only by the fact other visitors were there,

How am I supposed to deal with this? I’m a good mum and try to be a good daughter but it seems, on this occasion, I’m apparently being a shitty daughter by being a good mum.

She is not used to people saying no to her and I think this, plus the aftermath of cancer is making this very difficult. Going by past issues, I foresee that she’ll NEVER get over this.

What do I do?

I wouldn't write, it will stir things up for her again and may project it to yet another level. She is not thinking rationally about your reasons so the letter will simply anger her more rather than placate anything.

I think the money is a difficult one, I understand from your point of view that you considered it too much and felt uncomfortable but they now think they are allowed to do nothing for you and its one more thing to add to their list of gripes. Did they take it back? if not maybe say Kindly that it doesn't feel right, thank them and say that you'll pop it aside for the DC when they're older. Large amounts of money mean a lot less to people that have it, so when its refused by people that can genuinely use it it can come across as insulting.

You clearly want to get back to an even keel with her so I would phone your mum once a week, maybe at a fixed time, ask how she is, tell her about your week (which may take a few weeks before she's ready to listen) If she has a go at you say 'look mum I just called to see how you are if you don't want to chat yet I'll try again next week'. If she calls you out on the original issue 'look mum I've told you the reasons many times, I'm not going to again then deflect to an achievement of DD during the week.' Don't engage in her negatives and deflect with something else nice that has happened during the week.

I understand all those saying go NC until she calls you but I don't think that will work, the resentment will grow and things will never get back to normal.

Sorry if I missed this but is she still on medication for her ongoing treatment? as many drugs can have side effects like those that you originally described.

Sorry OP.

Some people are broken and manipulative and your mum is one of them.

Not everyone will understand, but those of us who grew up under the broken people do.

Don't write her a letter. She's not logical. She'll keep it as toxic evidence and tell everyone about it without actually showing them what it is. Or she'll write back trying to derail it and hurt you. It won't change her behaviour, it'll just give her another tool.

Don't listen to her husband anymore. He's checked out, that's how they deal with this kind of person.

Do write a diary though, keep talking to others, and work on your own relationship with yourself and your own children. Counsellors are good.

Oh I really feel for you. My DMum could be quiet controlling and we certainly did everything she asked of us when she had cancer (and yes even though she died over 10 years ago I still feel guilty for posting that because I know she’d be affronted by it!).

I do agree with pp that she’s very manipulative. I would recommend reading ‘Toxic parents’ by Susan Forward. Not an easy read but I think you’ll identify with it and it might help you moving forward. I think it’s worth writing to your mother and if she’s brings it up again, just say - we’ve had this discussion, please refer to the letter I sent. It’s either that she’s incredibly manipulative or she really is forgetting all these conversations. Your Step Dad is clearly manipulated too though if he’s supporting her, when anyone who is rational would gently be saying ‘Well your memory isn’t what it used to be so maybe now isn’t a good time’.

I hope the counselling sessions help.

I think it sounds like the two of you have been codependent and she has narcissistic traits which you are trained to indulg, hence your anxiety at making her unhappy. It's highly unlikely she will change which is sad, because you will have to grieve for what you did have while putting up with 'punishment' and being made to feel a villain. The only way you can find peace of mind now (and in a way you're experience is an opportunity) is to accept you are no longer on the end of her string and that's a better, healthier, liberating place to be.

The cancer is a red herring, even though it was the catalyst. She has always been manipulative and controlling. You haven’t dared to stand up to her until now (because you felt you had no choice) and that’s why the sh*t has now hit the fan. This is exactly why you didn’t dare stand up to her before; she conditioned you not to, and based on her previous behaviour, deep down you were probably afraid it might go like this. You are deep in the FOG (fear, obligation and guilt) and have been all your life I expect.

“Talking it through was good but I don't feel any different now. I need someone to flick a switch and make me not care. I'm desperately trying to do that myself. What is wrong with me that I can't?”

There’s nothing wrong with you. You are being completely unrealistic to expect one counselling to undo a lifetime of toxic conditioning from your mother. You can’t just flick a switch and not care. You can reflect on her behaviour and how it’s affected you, acknowledge your complex feelings about it, and work on changing your own unhealthy thoughts and behaviours to healthier ones. Once you take back control of your own life and your own head, you will start to feel much better.

A PP has already recommended “Toxic Parents” by Susan Forward and I urge you to read it. It’s often recommended on here and having read it myself, I see why. Read it and continue with the counselling. You might also find it helpful to check out the Stately Homes thread.

I’m sorry you’re going through this. I was an only daughter and I had a similar codependent relationship with my mother. I actually didn’t realise the dynamic until after she’d died, and it makes me resentful even 10 years on.

It’s not you. It’s not your fault. Time and distance are needed. If she starts to come around then there may be hope. If she doesn’t, there’s nothing you can do except let time put some emotional distance between you.

Stop contacting her. But be friendly and normal if she gets in contact with you. The first sign of bad behaviour, don’t feel rude about walking away.

It’s so hard. I never managed it but I feel for you.

I might also consider putting your points on paper, bullet point style, to refer to in the future if you need to reaffirm your decision. I know my father doesn’t really listen when I speak as his mind is in a fixed frame (he is not manipulative just old), but I have much more success with the written word. Don’t send it to her, but keep it with you when you visit / by the phone. Broken record if needed, but it is less emotional and confusing to read same script off the paper in a slightly detached way, than it is to have to think and relive it every time you go round in circles.

For me the weird lunge from someone naice and the obsessively revisiting the same conversation might suggest a personality change, perhaps neurological fallout from the chemo.

I would not let her spend time alone with DCs as this can lead to some very unpredictable behaviour, outbursts, anger whatever and I would outright tell her that she needs to go and see the doctor, or at the very least acknowledge that some things aren't ok before you carefully move on.

I would also explain to DC in good faith that grandma has some problems, and we all love her dearly, but she isn't quite herself and might be a bit unpredictable at times. That if anything worries them it shouldn't be their problem and they need to come to you and let you worry about it. They should not be going into situations with a loved and trusted relative who isn't quite right without some understanding of that, because that is the path to catastrophe or at least a lot of hurt for them.

Past a certain point saying "I love you so dearly" isn't enough to get things across, and it comes to "Because that's the way it's going to be, we've done that coversation, how about a scone rather than a pointless falling out"

“For me the weird lunge from someone naice and the obsessively revisiting the same conversation might suggest a personality change, perhaps neurological fallout from the chemo.”

Oh come on. Surely everyone knows that manipulative people are perfectly capable of being charming when they’re getting their own way and awful when they’re not?

This is not down to the cancer or chemo, the OP has clearly stated that her mother showed signs of being manipulative and toxic before her illness and treatment.

Controlling people are controlling and their story shifts to fit their need to control, not their need for whatever it is they are demanding. This is why your DM can suddenly manage without the children when she has always claimed she can’t. It’s not about the children. It’s not about you. It’s about her. It’s about her control.

This story will be very outing. Here goes...

DM had cancer from when DSis and I were preteens and passed away when I was 40. When DSis had her first daughter she was thinking of calling the baby Imogen. A really pretty name. My DM used the cancer card (as DSis and I called it). DM’s comment was that DSis just must not, that it was too hurtful, that every drug she had been given for her illness ended in ‘gen’, and she would only be able to think of cancer when she heard the baby’s name.

All together now, aah.

The thing was that she had always disliked the name. My DF wanted me to be called Imogen when I was born and she had dismissed it then. Too much like Sanatogen apparently.

It was not to do with cancer. It was to do with her opinion being the only one. Nobody else having the right to their own. And control. Lots of control.

We also changed the name of our DS2 in response to her outpouring over his first name when we told her of our choice.

It’s control and you cannot change how she wields it. She can decide to behave well or not. You can decide how much to expose your DC (and yourself and DH). Make you choices. You can’t make hers.

Everytime you contact her, she knows she is getting to you, so I honestly think you need to stop calling. If she can remember to be pissed off for 2 weeks, she can remember the reasons for your decision!
I'm glad you are getting counselling. You are doing the right thing - you csn't risk your children because your mother is manipulative.

I too agree with AnnaMagnani, and I recognise the pattern and escalation you've described here over the last month or so.

The reason you've never seen the aggression before, or this extreme escalation is because you've never stood up to her before. This is the first time her usual tactics haven't worked and she's had to deploy more extreme ones. So it's understandable too that you're struggling to stand your ground and keep getting dragged back in to her games.

Hard as it is, I think you need to accept that this is classic abusive behaviour and that as long as you continue responding to it, engaging with her arguments, and trying to appease her, it will continue.

The cycle of abuse that's playing out here: you said no to her and took her control away -> she went on the attack to bring you back in line with her usual tactics -> you continued saying no -> she ramped up her tactics to a more extreme level -> you wobbled ("we'll talk about it") -> nicely nice reappeared to enforce that as her desired outcome -> you still didn't cave -> massive escalation.

She will keep going until she gets control back. That is all that is playing out here, and I can imagine it must be incredibly distressing to realise she cares so little for your children she is prepared to hurt them by trying to use them as a weapon to get her control back.

Her actions are not your responsibility. Although I understand you will have been conditioned your whole life to believe otherwise.

When she used to call every 4 or 5 days saying how depressed she was for lack of contact, that was a control tactic. It made you feel bad so you ran around trying to appease her.

When she went out of contact for 2 weeks that was also a control tactic. She knew it would distress you and bargained on it pushing you into running after her again.

Sadly, by doing the latter she has exposed the former as nothing more than manipulation.

You are clearly a kind and caring person or you would not be so affected by all this - and she knows it and is trying to weaponise that.

Step back a little bit and look at what this behaviour reveals - label each time she has deployed a controlling tactic. It's hard but it will help you see what's going on and why you can't fix it.

The only thing that will make this stop is if you capitulate. That is the only thing that will send the cycle of abuse back to the beginning where she goes back to nicely nice mode - you had a brief moment of that from her because she thought she'd achieved control again.

You can't stop it, but you can stop feeding it.

She is not interested in reason, she is not interested in compassion, she is flat out not interested in anything other than her own wants. You could reason with her for the rest of your life and you would still make no headway, because she's not interested. Getting you to provide your reasons is a way for her to prolong the manipulation, to try and make you feel you've imagined things, to try and make you question your judgement, and to try and exhaust you so you break and give in.

Her behaviour is not a reflection on you, it's a reflection on herself.

My advice would be not to chase her - she will interpret it as you weakening and a sign her tactics are working, so she will continue.

If she makes contact or raises any of these points or demands reasons - do not engage. Find a one line response that you are happy with and repeat it calmly over and over. If necessary, end the call (the 3 strikes suggestion was a good one) or tell her to leave or leave yourself. "I've given my reasons and I'm not discussing this again" kind of thing.

If it transpires that she cares so little she doesn't make contact again, then sad as that is it does also confirm that none of this has been about her desperation to have her grandchildren in her life and have a positive relationship with them - it has been entirely about having control of them and you, irrespective of the risk or harm caused.

You are not a cow, you've just been conditioned to believe you are if you don't do what she wants.

If the roles were reversed, what would it take for someone to "make" you be aggressive, behave like this, or do what she did to your DD? I suspect there is nothing anyone could do to make you do any of this to another person.

Your caring nature is being exploited.

When you feel yourself being drawn in and your distress bubbling up, pause, take a breath, step back and label the tactic she has deployed, hold back from engaging - remind yourself "grey rock" if it helps. Keep breathing and walk away. Focus on why you are doing this - the welfare and safety of your children.

I'm really glad you've sought out counselling. That's a really positive step for the long term, although I too think you will need more than 5 sessions. For now though it is a great start.

You are doing the right thing. Start labelling her behaviours as the control tactics they are, stop engaging with them. Stay strong. You are doing what you need to do to protect your children, and yourself.

You can and will get through this.

Firstly (hugs) - what follows is going to be tough going, but it is from my understanding of my own family system.

What your mother is performing is DARVO - deny, attack, reversing victim and offender. It is one of the classic tell tales of narcissistic traits. If the chemo has done anything, it sounds like it has removed some of the social inhibitions that previously masked these thoughts and behaviours.

This pattern of behaviour is not new for your mum - sadly.

From reading your posts, it is clear that there are some traits of codependency and enmeshment with your family of origin - I could have written your posts, and I am 9 months into therapy.

What your mum has performed with your 13 y.o. Is to try to use her as a “flying monkey” - an ally to the abuser trying to get the victim (you) to capitulate. Your step father will be unlikely to assist - he is her domestic source of supply, and will literally do anything to try to reduce the emotional demands on him. In doing so, she has made your 13 y.o. a victim as well.

Please be very careful, in my family of origin, these tantrums usually peak with destructive behaviours - of property, or against a person - and occasionally directly against the victim (me).

Have a look at this article :

www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/here-there-and-everywhere/201701/11-warning-signs-gaslighting

There is a community called “Out of the fog” - I believe that you’ll find many others who have been in a similar position, and will be able to help.

This is a link to their do’s and dont’s page, I suspect that you’ll find it useful.

outofthefog.website/toolbox-intro/

As the behaviours you have described, have persisted in my own life since very early childhood, I am being treated for cPTSD - I get emotional flashbacks when my mind thinks that it ought to be doing something for my family of origin, regardless of the reality of the circumstances.

Again (hugs) - I wish I could wave a wand, and fix this, but as I am learning, the best we can do is to manage it, and stop any emotional damage to ourselves or those we hold dear.

.

I recognise that uncomfortable feeling of having displeased your parents, my old pattern was to just crack and say ''okay!'' and do what they wanted, because they never back down, never say sorry.

But I've learned to SIT WITH the enormous discomfort of displeasing my mother and it gets less excruciatingly awkward each time.

My mother thinks I"ve lost my mind, become spiky, sensitive, hormonal, menopausal, not sure but she cannot control me any more.

Bloody hell she’s putting you through so much

I’m another that agrees with Maelstrom - you need to not have anything to do with her, at the very least until she apologises.

Also (and I don’t want to make you feel bad) but there needs to be ABSOLUTELY NO unsupervised contact with the dc. She is a manipulative bitch and you just can’t expose them to that. It’s not fair.

Please just completely forget about her as much as you can and get on with your own lives. Start as you mean to go on.

Absolutely Gruffalina. You’ve expressed it so eloquently.

Posters have described her controlling, manipulative behaviour and how you should deal with it better than I ever could.

I am sorry you're going through this OP. It's truly not you. It is her. You're not a cow. She is the problem, not you. It's going to be painful, but don't let her destroy you and your family. Stand firm. Continue with the counselling if you can.

I hadn't realised one of the children was 13 when I started reading the thread OP. Surely that dd is the perfect olive branch. She can see the older girl alone, whenever she and dd like and feel like she does have some privacy with her grandchild even if it isn't with all of them.
Is she local? Could your dd take a bus over to see her on weekends? Though now maybe it has gone too far for that if she is saying manipulative things to dd.

Your poor dd. That would be the final straw for me. I would be blocking your dm & dsd on all family devices for the foreseeable future.

Whatever your dm feels she has absolutely no right to try and get your dd 'on side' and is in fact reenforcing why she should not be left alone with your children.

Chin up op. You'll get though this.

God no zeeboo.

Aside from the poorness of using children as human shields, it just won't do any good.

It's the OP's defiance that's the problem, not the lack of access.

Whatever you do, stop explaining this over and over again to her. Stop engaging in his argument. Your minds are made up. No more discussion.

Zeeboo that’s potentially very very harmful. 13 is a very impressionable age. Can you imagine the hurt granny dearest is going to inflict if she gets the chance of alone time with any of the kids? The 13 year old has ALREADY been targeted and reduced to tears, just by walking the toxic bitch to the car.

Please, don’t let ANY of the dc spend ANY time alone with her Op. look what she’s done to you - do you really want her around your kids?

Bad enough she tried it with her own daughter but now trying it with yours? Outrageous. I'd say if she carries on with this behaviour she won't get to see them anymore. As a parent you protect your children first, and she's escalated it to that

dd is the perfect olive branch

Absolutely not!

Your DD already is upset by what she is mature enough to notice in her DGM’s behaviour. She needs protecting. She will feel, from what you have said, that she is being manipulated to act against you. She needs her mum and dad, not someone who is out to use her to get at them.

Oh love

As someone who has had to deal with more family drama and smalls caught up with it then I’d like I would do a few things.
Be honest with the kids, the busy line for me caused more hurt it also lead to constant asking and them feeling rejected. So next time be honest, grandma is a little upset as I said she can’t look after you anymore on her own as she is a bit forgetful.

Something better than that but you get the gist.

I’d also block her on dds phone, she will manipulate her it will be awful for her. That’s a line she’s crossed she shouldn’t be involving her.

Good luck,