Already know AIBU about baby sleeping

[Murane]

DH took the baby (3 months old) to give me two hours break. I'm exhausted because he sleeps about 6 hours at night and only has a couple of 20 minute naps during the day, and it's full-on exhausting trying to entertain him for 18 hours a day. I figured I'd have two hours sleep while DH wore him out, and then when I got him back he'd be tired, and DH would finally understand how exhausting it is looking after him.

He went to sleep
So now I've got him back and not only is he wide awake, DH has absolutely no idea how hard it is looking after him. And I've wasted my chance of having him looked after on a period when he was asleep and didn't need looking after anyway. I could have just had him myself, he'd have been asleep and DH could have had him on a different two hours when he actually needs looking after.

I have literally cried my eyes out. I know it isn't DH's fault that the baby went to sleep. But I was desperate for him to understand how ill and exhausted I feel, and he doesn't. And I was desperate for the baby to be sleepy when I got him back, but instead he's full of beans. Now DH thinks he's had "his turn" at babysitting and I won't get those two hours back.

Oh yes and agree with @peachgreen about the bouncer. It could easily take 30 mins to get DS asleep in it and I had to remove all toys and keep rhythmically bouncing as fast as I could without shaking. If he could see anything he would get distracted. But that bouncer was my friend for naps! I just wish I'd bought an electric one instead of a manual one 😂

You're doing great and it is NOT an easy job with a hyper-alert baby and knackered mum

i' ve tried putting him down for naps at regular intervals (in cot and chair, with white noise and rocking) but he just lies there wide awake and screams until I pick him up.

i know its not advised but i would be rocking him to sleep.
as soon as he gives yoi cues but arpind 2 jrs after he wakes. Given what you've described why not contact yoir health visitor and ask for them to visit?

i agree with pp you sound like you are tryong to do too much. ironing can wait.or be avoided. Cooking can be simplified and the evening dog walk can be DHs responsibility when he is there.

As for getting 8 hrs sleep a night that might be quite a while away yet but your body will adjust. You need to prioritise sleep when DH gets in now though so orher jobs have to take a backseat

Have you spoken to health visitor or anyone about his sleep ? if he's only having 6 hours 40 minutes a day that seems no where near enough no wonder you are exhausted. I only have my little boy to go on and he did have lots if naps so may be some babies have less but this seems to be a awful lot less and I would suggest ruling out anything causing it if you can e.g. allergies. I would priorities your sleep as soon as your husband gets it can you just go to bed ? how about if you and baby snuggled up in the afternoon and tried to start to take a nap together my cousin always did this and it worked well. I have a friend who's baby woke a lot in the night and they split the night so she slept from 8 and he fed baby , played and got him settled to bed then listened out till 12 anything in this time he dealt with after 12 he slept and any wakes up ECT his partner dealt with obviously baby would take a bottle have you considered trying a bottle so you could try something like this at all ? Are you getting out at all most libarys run rhyme times ECT which is a free class for mums and baby's with toys and songs , There is also sensory classes , baby massage, baby yoga ECT I would try and get out and about a bit if you can as it will break the day up for you and help entertain baby as well. Also in the weekend when your partner is here I would really try and get as much sleep as you can.

murane do You have a sling?

OP my son has sleep problems. Things improved when I grabbed a piece of paper and brainstormed changes that could improve both of our lives. I recommend taking him down to the library and borrowing some sleep books. Some people's babies don't need routine - others do. Have a look at some books for suggested routines. What sleep he has when affects the sleep he has later in the day. Getting some sunlight and fresh air helps. Considering when he eats etc, calming him down - all can help. Don't forget to write down what would help you too - ie your partner doing certain things or the foods you eat. When I was super tired I would seek a sugar hit to keep me going...but with a sugar hit comes a sugar dip which added to the tiredness. Look to eat energy sustaining things like oats etc. Get some salmon to help with brain fog.
Babies have 45 minute sleep cycles. Every 45mins their mind wakes them up a little bit to check their environment - its a safety thing - if they feel safe they will go back to sleep. If they sense something has changed in their environment they may not go back to sleep. Babies that are very tired fall into a deep sleep - and when they wake up a little bit during one of their 45min sleep cycles - the deep sleep gives them the energy to stay awake. Its why some of the other posters have said he might be overstimulated - he could be very tired and falling into a deep sleep.
Also - please ring your GP or health visitor for advice or help. Lots of new parents struggle with new babies - you are not the only one and I would have thought they would have something in place to help.
But most of all - it will get better - new babies are just discovering the world and its lots of new experiences for them but it will settle down. Good luck.

I used the baby whisperer with my first. I'd never even held a baby before my first so was clueless.

I needed sleep and a routine, baby needed sleep and a routine, it taught me how to do it, without the baby screaming, by 12 weeks. She was put down awake awake too after some practice.

Pretty sure the first thing it said to crack was naps. The sleep cycle means baby is in a light sleep for 20 mins and may wake after that and the key is to get through that to deeper sleep. I ditched the book a while back though (mine are primary age).

Second child I felt more confident to wing it, but still loosely followed the bits I felt worked. She slept through fine pretty fast too. Although I wanted to enjoy more cuddles second time round so cuddled her to sleep in front of the telly until she was 3.

Sleep is so important for both of you

Incidentally, how did your DH get your baby to sleep for 2 hours?
What did he do?
And can he do it twice/three times a day, two days in a row over the weekend to maybe kickstart the sleeping routine?

For curious - a useful link on "sleep training" www.isisonline.org.uk/how_babies_sleep/sleep_training/considerations/
More and more research are now suggesting that 1) sleep is developmental and cannot and shouldn't be 'trained and 2) increased cortisol levels are associated with 'training' methods which can in turn be harmful to baby.

This is not to say a routine should not be tried and generally gentle methods to promote sleep. At that age it is normal for baby not to want to be put down ('4th trimester') so it could be about how to achieve that in the best possible way for mum - sling and co-sleeping are 2 options to try in my view.

OP I mean this nothing but kindly, I do wonder if you might be suffering Post Natal Depression.

My babies were both complete non sleepers. They napped twenty mins twice or three times a day and would only do that in the sling. If I dared to put them down they just screamed. I carried them all the time.
A good comfortable sling helped a lot, it meant I could do normal things (eat cake and drink tea) with my hands free and baby was happy and not screaming.
I got to be in a really bad place though, lack of sleep and never having any time without baby attached to me really damaged my mental health.
I have since done some training which included information about PND, and With that knowledge and hindsight I realise that I probably did have PND and I should have asked for help.

Maybe you could go to your GP and explain how you feel? You said that you feel "blank, like a zombie" - this can be indicative of depression.

@Murane I also have a 3 month old little boy, and it's my first so mostly muddling along as I imagine you are.

Firstly it's crappy your DH isn't more helpful but from your other posts it looks like he's working rather long hours despite this though you can't see him having him as 'babysitting' you are both parenting and have equal responsibility.

My little boy also needs a fair bit of entertaining, so I absolutely feel for you it can be absolutely mind numbing. I don't believe that as others have said were over stimulating or our babies would be entertained by a shadow as frankly he was amused by a shadow at six weeks and certainly isn't anymore

Are you doing any classes we've started one called discovery tots a couple of weeks ago I really like the class and it's given me ideas to amuse him as previously it was just making funny noises etc. We do baby yoga to nursery rhymes and he loves it.

Do you have a playmat/gym thing? I've recently found I can leave him lay on that while I put makeup on get dressed etc after 15-20 mins he starts to fuss as he's bored. We also play on it together every day and use it for tummy time. I've not found bouncers/swings any good I spent a load on a 2 in 1 and he hates it the bouncer alone is too low down he prefers being higher up to look around currently trying to sell it and get another that's higher up!

My little monster boy naps in the day if I'm out if he's in his pram/the car he sleeps the whole time really between feeds but at home he power naps for 15 minutes at a time which is a changed he's made in the last couple of weeks, I still put him swaddled and into his Moses basket for naps to maintain that routine and encourage a longer nap.

Sleep at night wise we've been spoilt he's slept from 1-6 every night since four weeks up until this week when he's worked out how to get out his swaddle but can't sleep without it. I've been up since 3 with him trying to get him back off, re-swaddling etc

I watch TV when he's having a feed, when hubby gets home could you go and have a bath take an iPad or a book and just take a relaxing hour to yourself?

Have you had any time to yourself yet, it's harder as your breastfeeding but a catch up with friends without baby even just a coffee for some adult time I'm seeing my friends next weekend for my birthday and literally cannot wait to be baby free and see if my brain still functions as I'm sure I'm losing brain cells daily.

It's healthy that you are honest about how boring and mind numbing it can be, I think those of us who can admit that will fare better on the long run and it doesn't mean we are bad parents. Sometimes I've text my husband saying the baby is being a (insert word you shouldn't call your newborn here) as I need that to get through my day!

If your DH doesn't work weekends then does he not take on his share then to give you a break? Mine used to get up and do the early shift so from about 5.30 am -10 so I could have an extended sleep in on both weekend days. We mixed fed so he could do this. Mine was a very awake baby from newborn so they don't all sleep for Britain. He was happy as long as I entertained him but admittedly I quite enjoyed it. Once they get to about 5 or 6 months they are much more entertained by toys etc as they can hold them etc. Get one of those baby entertainment centres, a door bouncer, a playmat, and rotate!

@Murane

Also have you tried white noise? We discovered he liked it on our phones so bought a myhummy which has been working very well at night

I also cracked and gave him a dummy at four weeks which is when he started sleeping. We have a swaddle, dummy, myhummy combo for bedtime/naps.

Also I forgot to say on my last post, you are bloody brilliant I'd be dead on my feet if I was getting that sleep every single night. We had a really hard first 3-4 weeks and I felt like I was at absolute breaking point. I had to stop breastfeeding as I was concerned for my mental health and really needed the help. So seriously hats off to you! You're doing a great job!

Hello

You are amazing to be surviving in this situation OP! My older daughter needed a lot of stimulation as a baby when awake. I found it much easier when she was old enough to sit up in the pushchair as she was stimulated by going out for walks and looking around and about. She also liked facing outwards in a sling. I found it helpful to go to classes as well (for my sanity talking to other people, as well as stimulation for her), stuff like rhyme time at library. I found that she had the best nap after her swimming lesson.

Give him a big feed and change just before your husband gets home and then take him on the dog walk where he is likely to fall asleep for the night and you can transfer him to his cot on return.
After his lunch, take him for another dog walk and he should drop off for a couple of hours.
I agree he sounds over tired and over stimulated. He needs to learn to entertain himself for your sanity!

Seconding the idea of focusing on the early nap at like 1-1.5 hours after he wakes up. You're out with the pram trying to get him to sleep in the afternoon, he's already overtired by then. And the more overtired they are, the less they sleep.
Also second/thirding the sling recommendation. The great thing about the sling is that if he likes it, he'll just fall asleep as and when he's tired, you don't have to watch out for tired signs.

I am sorry you are having such a hard time op. I had a couple of really difficult babies in quick succession, I didn't realise how difficult they were until no. 3 came along! 3 slept so much in first weeks that I got the worst bout of mastitis ever, but aside from that she fed, slept, and rarely cried. Was content in her chair, easy going. No colic!

Anyway, you need rest. I breastfed my angry fight-y first babies to sleep, I went on very long walks and spent hours in cafés, I co-slept, I used a sling and then a soft carrier a lot. I didn't bother trying to put them down for naps during the day or regulating their sleep because they were completely uninterested in being asleep they fought it with every fibre of their tiny beings. So I just went with their flow for a while, I found being accepting of my reality quite freeing. I let them sleep when and where ever they fell asleep, in pram, in car seat, in sling, in bouncy chair, on playmat in living room, in bed next to me. It passed, they got bigger, new problems arise but sleep deprivation is such a big issue for your health and wellbeing that you need to find a way to get more rest op. So prioritise that - if letting the baby be who he is and finding a way to make it work for you is possible then it might help.

My babies are now teens and pre teens who give me sleepless nights for all sorts of reasons but it is not as relentless and intense as those first few months feel. Be kind to yourself. Get help from your husband, health visitor whatever you need, don't keep trying to manage alone.💐

Not RTRF, but from what I have skimmed, it sounds like he is overstimulated/ overtired from all the "entertainment" which leads to him not napping, poor daytime napping leads to poor night time sleep (daytime naps release cortisol's which make them less stressed).

So my advice....

Firstly (and this came from a friend who has 4 kids, the middle two a set of twins)..."Put the goddamn baby down" she told me this before DD was born, I ignored it and listened to the "you can't hold a baby too much"...apparently with my DD you can. I would hold her as she was getting upset, she would get more upset, so I would hug her some more, then I when this wasn't working I would try a nappy change, the moment she was on the changing table with her nappy off she would chill out (and as she has got older) kick about, smile, coo etc. So I would draw up a chair, grab a cup of tea and a book (or mumsnet on my phone) and enjoy the moment. Now at 3 1/2 months she spends large parts of the day in her playpen, nappy-off on some muslins entertaining herself, if I don't lookout for tiredness and put her in her cot she eventually just sucks her thumb and falls asleep where she is!

Secondly- You need to focus on the naps to improve ALL of her sleep. Outdoor naps have been proven to increase the length of the napping and to help baby sort out their day and night sleep patterns. My DD loves to sleep, but even by her standards the 4 1/4 hour afternoon nap she had yesterday afternoon in her pushchair in the garden was amazing!! I bought a Snoozeshade off ebay and it was it's first use...I think it has already paid for itself in that one nap!!! Also get out walking everyday (pushchair or carrier) make it a habit that at least one of his naps each day is taken that way. I was at a baby group recently and a Mum was asking me and another Mum if it was hard having to look after a dog and a baby...we both concluded that it was "different" rather than hard, as we were both out walking everyday (most days twice a day) from the start (middle of winter) regardless of the weather, and as a result we both seem to have babies that nap/sleep well.

Finally...you need to get your DH to pull his weight. My DH does very few housework chores as he is at work full time and I have 3 hours every afternoon to get on with them, so I don't begrudge him (he does do some DIY). But he has started looking after DD when I go out running in the morning at the weekend, and walking the dog (just me and the dog) so we can do some Dog training some weekend afternoons. He also plays with/entertains her when he is home so I don't have to. Your DH needs to realise he is 50% of the parents and start acting like it, you need to "let" him.

@oblada - the link to ‘evidence’ leads to a front page which says there has been almost no scientific research into the effect of sleep training. I could stop there but the text goes on to make great leaps of assumption about everything, that sleep training ‘may’ have an effect on SIDS and it ‘may’ have an effect on breastfeeding etc. It proffers absolutely no scientific or other evidence whatsoever and therefore cannot be considered as anything other than just another opinion, no more or less relevant than any of ours. By all means put websites in but don’t say they are evidence of anything when they are not.

Re feedings, bottle or breastfeeding, baby can be fed plenty at that age in the hours between 7am and 7pm with a dream feed if necessary. Mine actually dropped the 11pm dream feed quite naturally around this age because when we woke them they just didn’t want any milk. They were having enough in the day and I monitored them very closely based on volume (bottle) and time/volume for breast which is less scientific but you can do a rough gauge. you can also tell if a baby is full and content by their weight, growth and, ironically, their sleep! In growth spurt times mine still slept through but drank loads more at 7am and then in the day meaning they had plenty of energy to get through the night. Sleeping all night also means great feeding in the day. It’s win win.

As a previous poster says, many parents these days go in at every gurgle and whinge, unable to let their child self settle. IME these kids go on to be the ones who don’t go to bed at night, wake up all hours till child is into double figures and end up in their parents beds TIL they are far too old to fit into it comfortably. None of these were acceptable options to me and none contribute to anyone sleeping properly and well.

There was a recent panorama showing the effects of poor sleep on kids and showing a sleep clinic whose main job was to educate parents on taking away iPads from toddlers before bedtime (yes, really) and actually insisting on their children going to bed and staying in bed. No medical stuff, no diagnoses, just remedying really bad modern parenting practices. It’s worth watching.

We no longer live in those multi generational households where we learn child rearing off our parents, aunts, extended family and we also don’t have the support around which makes it possible to have disturbed nights because grandma/mum/great Aunt Flo can sit with the baby in the day while you catch up on sleep. Without that vital education and support, we need to find our own ways of dealing with lone care. I, like the OP, did not have a partner around to help and was not prepared to make my partner, the only person earning money, just as exhausted as I was. Sleep training was short, sweet and saved our sanity, probably our marriage, and certainly my relationship with my baby. By all means do differently if you wish but don’t come on here offering non scientific nonsense to rubbish an idea with which you simply disagree. It’s a genuine option for the OP which could save her sanity at a time where she really needs It.

I second all the posters who recommended a good sling. At that age only two things worked: DS in a sling with a dummy in and walking-he would fall asleep in less than 20minutes..every time..that would allow me to sit down and watch tv, phone, food etc..or do stuff around the house..Both me and DH could calm him like that.
The second one is BREAST. As soon as he was latched on he would calm down and often fall asleep. At my most tired I fould feed laying down on a bed-we were side by side facing each other..that was guaranteed to put him to sleep..even if only for 20minutes...

Lastly it gets easier!! He WILL sleep better eventually and so will you

Curious - do you know who ISIS is?
Is that better for you www.laleche.org.uk/letting-babies-cry-facts-behind-studies/

Six hours is not even close to optimum, especially interrupted, and other people getting less sleep than OP means nothing. I repeat OP, you're entitled to be tired and it's perfectly reasonable to hate it!

You don't need to entertain a 3 month old. Honestly. Just lie the baby on the bed next to you and rest.

When DS was 3 months old, he only napped in the sling or the bouncer. Then my mother came to stay and she insisted on taking him for walks in the stroller. He stayed awake the whole time, sometimes cried. She persisted, and after a few days he would nap in the stroller.

At that age, I used to either put him in the bouncer and bounce him to sleep with my foot (when they stir, you resume bouncing), or feed to sleep and either put him carefully down or held him for his nap while watching TV. This felt like 'break time' for me.

Try a dummy. Whatever anyone tells you, they are magic. DS is now 7 months. He can sleep with or without it. He doesn't wake up every half and hour when it's fallen out. Obviously all babies are different but what I am trying to say is that they are not the work of the devil.

What really saved us with naps was the weebeedreaming website. From 4 months it gives sleep schedules and tells you how much awake time between naps your baby can cope with. I was shocked that on day 1, DS slotted in perfectly. It hadn't occurred to me that he could nap so early in the day.

www.weebeedreaming.com/my-blog/sample-schedule-4-months-up

Hang in there OP, it's tough.

It’s funny oblada because that link has an awful lot of evidence in support of my view and an awful lot of opinion/guesswork/extrapolation in support of yours.

Op - click on the link oblada provided for la leche, read the Flanders survey, the two groups of babies who were sleep training did not test as stressed and did sleep better in the end.

I do not support a view that babies should be left to cry in the day, my sleep training was undertaken alongside an awful lot of loving daytime attention and care. They became very secure in sleeping well knowing we would be awake and happy and ready for them come morning. Had you measured them at day 3 of sleep training (as the first survey oblada posts suggested) and their cortisol levels may well have be higher as they were getting used to a change in circumstances when previously they have got used to be held or immediately responded to 24/7. This Flanders survey shows that longer term, their stress levels are not higher, they have adjusted, they are simply sleeping better. And learning to sleep is a life lesson that all children need to learn, no child voluntarily takes themselves to bed at 8pm, and it’s for parents to impose and support the retention of those good habits.

Incidentally, surveys have also shown higher cortisol levels in babies who go to nursery but it doesn’t and shouldn’t stop people using them. Babies brought up in a loving caring nurturing environment will thrive whatever circumstances they need to adjust to in order to suit the family’s needs. Happy parents invariably means happy baby.

And to be honest, some people simply don’t want to be attached to their babies 24/7. It doesn’t mean you love your kids any less just because you don’t want to wear them like a rucksack. The OP should not feel any guilt for wanting to get more than 6 hours of broken sleep and I and other posters are assuring her that it is not only possible but a comparatively easy and a relatively quick fix.

Oh OP I have so much sympathy for you, I am in the same boat. My 7mo is a terrible sleeper and even worse napper. I feel completely broken most days and sometimes feel like I just can't go on. She is extremely needy and is NEVER content to just sit on her own for 5 minutes. She is crawling which I thought would help but it's made no difference. As bad as it sounds, I often just leave her to whinge because trying (and failing) to keep her happy is soul-destroying and I just can't be bothered anymore (I'm always in the same room as her though). I'm going to speak to my HV or GP about her tbh because she is just so miserable.

As such, I have no advice, except that your DH does not get to get out of helping just because he works and doesn't bf. On nights where DD is really playing up, my DH takes her through to the spare room to sleep and only brings her through to me for feeds. As soon as she's been fed, he takes her straight back through and HE resettles her, so I can get as much sleep as possible. He also works, but he understands that what I'm doing is bloody hard work too and we work as a team.

for you, I know how much it sucks. And 15star your babies slept through so young purely because you got lucky!

Curious - LLL explains how poor the methodology is! And they didn't even dare to try it on a 3months old!
I'm not saying not to use it I am saying to explore other options which we KNOW are not potentially harmful both to baby AND the breastfeeding relationship first! That surely is a sensible first step don't you think?

I agree there are studies showing that babies/children under 3yrs old are stressed when away from the main caregiver. So yes nursery/childcare can be damaging to some extent. But yes despite that I choose to put my kids in childcare but I do it with my eyes open and try to do other things (long term bf, co-sleeping etc) which in my personal view could help mitigate any risk for them.

Having said that a 3months old is still very tiny and developing very fast (even the advice on alcohol intake for a bf mum often draws the line at under 3months and older) so it is not the same situation as an older, more developed, infant/child. Again going back to the 4th trimester concept.