Not to want to take teenager daughter on holiday

[potatopeel]

I have DD who is 17 who has a horrendous attitude, she's incredibly rude, grumpy, snappy, inconsiderate and very very controlling. She is her fathers double, hence me leaving him and her having no contact. She has younger siblings who are also NC with him. They are completely different to her, just your average kids, occasionally naughty/ rude/ annoying/ lazy etc, so by no means perfect.
DH and I are desperate for a holiday, we both work very hard and are very busy with kids etc. But we really want a relaxing holiday. If we take DD she will demand certain rooms/ seats on plane / days out / food and constantly ask for alcohol (we rarely say yes, so not sure why she does this) It's draining. If we leave her at home she'll trash the house, so not an option, we have no one we want to loose friendship enough to leave her with them.
We offered to pay for her and her friends to have a caravan holiday near family to keep an eye on her, but she says as they are under 18 they don't have ID and can't go drinking so she refused.
So we are left with the option to take her. So paying out a lot of money to feel uncomfortable and on edge somewhere else. DS15 has already expressed his concerns. We all do bend to her whims and wishes, not ideal but it's very difficult dealing with the fall out if we don't.
She doesn't see what she does or how she harms people. Even if it's staring her in the face.
She's ruined her passport trying to alter it to get a fake ID. I have told her she must pay to replace it, as she ruined it. DH has said he know we'll end up paying for it.
I think of laying down the ground rules before going (for the eldest not the others - seems ridiculous) but She'll ignore them or have an excuse.
AIBU not to want to take her, but do it and begrudge it?

@catinapoolofsunshine oh I see what you mean when you where saying about treating her and her brother as though they are much younger than their years. God lord no I don't take my 17 year old to a trampoline park, I would expect her to be annoyed and grumpy. My point is trying to do age appropriate things for all the different age ranges and there isn't a cross over a lot of the time. DS love karting DD at 17 doesn't want to do that. DD lives a manicure - DS And younger DD that's a no.
She's not responsible enough to be left alone, she won't shower if left alone in the house, if everybody is out during the day and it starts to get dark she panics and calls in a state. This is not me being mean - she's very sensitive to certain things. No big deal on those things. Just her little ways. What I don't accept as her little ways is demanding this that and the other and if she doesn't get it all hell breaks loose.

@Kleinzeit no she's not violent. She has been in the past. And it's very difficult to give you an example of what makes her terrifying in her behaviours, it's a collective of many different reactions to situations which makes it so the rest of the family actively avoid confrontation with her, the rest of us are very easy going and relaxed in our approaches, give and take, sharing the like. Where she's the opposite, which in its self isn't an issue until she's the one always taking.
Yesterday DS asked me when she was getting paid as she'd taken his phone charger 3 weeks ago told him when she was getting paid she'd buy her own, had since been paid, spent her money, not given him his charger and he was doing without - but he won't ask her because she'll blow up at him. If I then tell her to give him his charger, I then have a gob full and thrown at me and he'll get abuse once I've left. It sound ridiculous doesn't it. Even writing it seems so petty. So to avoid I buy him a new charger, she then gets cross because he's got something and she hasn't and blows up. So he gives her the new charger, she gives him his old charger - which she's probably broken (she does this constantly) and I have to buy him another one. And it goes on and on. So we avoid avoid avoid.

What you have just described there is bullying behaviour of the most manipulative kind.

I think it is actually better to have the confrontation than not have it, otherwise she goes unchallenged.

You're letting her do this. It's so obvious from your posts. I feel for you but you honestly need to let her 'blow up' in order to not tyrannise you all.

OK, now I really start to see what you mean.

If I then tell her to give him his charger, I then have a gob full and thrown at me and he'll get abuse once I've left. It sound ridiculous doesn't it. Even writing it seems so petty.

But that isn't trivial or petty at all. Your DD intimidated your DS into giving up one of his own possessions and he is too afraid to get it back. Your DS is not just being easygoing, he came to you because he is really afraid of her. How many 15 year old boys are too afraid to barge in and nab their phone charger back from their older sister?

I'm not sure what role your counsellor has, have you had any professional advice on managing DD's behaviour and limiting its impact on your other children? It's not just about helping her or being "fair" to them, it's also about letting them feel that they are safe and that their belongings are safe in their own home.

Ideally you need some kind of managed approach. I do strongly suggest you take a look at "Explosive Child" (I don't know about therapeutic parenting, that may help too). Specifically I am not just going to say that you should take the charger back and deal with the fallout - yes that might be the right approach but Ross Greene has a systematic way (baskets) to decide what boundaries to set and how to maintain them, and you may find his method is more effective and more manageable for discipline and boundaries than diving straight in.

Have you ever looked at family therapy? The fact that you identify her so strongly with your ex must have a big impact on your and your DH's relationship with her.
I do have sympathy, one of my sisters went through a phase like this and as siblings we felt like she ruined our holidays too. Not sure if leaving her out is an answer though.

How long have you been avoiding any conflict with your daughter? The charger situation is shocking because of the way you describe yourself handling it! At what age did you decide to start treating her as a ticking bomb? If she's not violent why on earth did you decide to let this escalate? Your relationship hasn't become like this overnight, when did you decide to avoid saying no to her or any form of confrontation?

Ironically she's probably immature because her actions have never had consequences.

Unless she does have undiagnosed special needs. Do you suspect that? Surely you must to be treating her so unusually?

If not why have you not bothered with the standard "with rights and privileges come responsibilities" stuff? It's all mad, but the "parenting" you describe most of all!

Perhaps going away to uni will be the making of her because nobody else will tiptoe around her in such a feeble way! How on earth she's going to survive the baptism of fire her first term will be (alone after dark, people not meekly giving her their possessions...) is anyone's guess though.

One practical thing about the phone chargers - if there would be too much fallout onto DS from trying to make DD return his charger, and if the only result of buying him a new one would be to make him give it to her(!), then it really might be best if you buy them both new chargers straight away.

And as a baby step in the right direction, you might propose that she does something positive in return for DS, in return for that long loan of his charger. If so then it needs to be something small and easy and something she can do at a set time, under your watchful eye, and not something like "lend him her own charger when he needs it" because even if she agrees now that it's a good idea she is too volatile to be sure she will respond positively when the time comes. Oh, and don't let him hear you suggest it to her, in case she reacts badly and the idea falls flat.

Your dd is 17 and unable to function in the dark or shower if left alone. Unless she has diagnosable additional needs that you’re not aware of, do you know how bizarre that sounds? Your dd is almost an adult in legal terms and you’re still not engaging on questions regarding family therapy in your home. Hasn’t your counsellor / therapist told you how concerning this sort of behaviour is? She’s holding you hostage in so many ways. She doesn’t have the capacity or the tools right now to become a a fully fledged adult because you haven’t taught her these skills. And it’s not going to change unless and until you stop accepting her behaviour. And stop with the enabling and avoid avoid avoid.

And god knows what your poor younger children must think and the poor lessons they’re learning. What a mess.

She sounds like she's very anxious and unhappy and that's manifesting in controlling and demanding behaviour.

My 5 yo does the boundary pushing thing (can I have 1 episode of Octonauts? Yes. So I can have 4 episodes? No. Wailing banshee time) because he's trying to find it and be secure in where it is. When we are very clear about what is happening and the order in which it's happening and our expectations of him then he is much, much calmer and happier.

Your 17 yo sounds like she's in a similar mindset but because she's older, less dependent and with more "adult" demands it's harder to manage. But the basic issue is the same - she needs to know where she stands and she needs to be standing on something firm. She's lost some of her footing somewhere

My brother took his very demanding teens on holiday recently. They gave him a list of "requirements" about travel time, mode of travel, available activities, behavioural restrictions etc and he caved on all of them. They had a miserable holiday as a result because the kids were pushing for more, more, more to find his limits