Not to want to take teenager daughter on holiday

[potatopeel]

I have DD who is 17 who has a horrendous attitude, she's incredibly rude, grumpy, snappy, inconsiderate and very very controlling. She is her fathers double, hence me leaving him and her having no contact. She has younger siblings who are also NC with him. They are completely different to her, just your average kids, occasionally naughty/ rude/ annoying/ lazy etc, so by no means perfect.
DH and I are desperate for a holiday, we both work very hard and are very busy with kids etc. But we really want a relaxing holiday. If we take DD she will demand certain rooms/ seats on plane / days out / food and constantly ask for alcohol (we rarely say yes, so not sure why she does this) It's draining. If we leave her at home she'll trash the house, so not an option, we have no one we want to loose friendship enough to leave her with them.
We offered to pay for her and her friends to have a caravan holiday near family to keep an eye on her, but she says as they are under 18 they don't have ID and can't go drinking so she refused.
So we are left with the option to take her. So paying out a lot of money to feel uncomfortable and on edge somewhere else. DS15 has already expressed his concerns. We all do bend to her whims and wishes, not ideal but it's very difficult dealing with the fall out if we don't.
She doesn't see what she does or how she harms people. Even if it's staring her in the face.
She's ruined her passport trying to alter it to get a fake ID. I have told her she must pay to replace it, as she ruined it. DH has said he know we'll end up paying for it.
I think of laying down the ground rules before going (for the eldest not the others - seems ridiculous) but She'll ignore them or have an excuse.
AIBU not to want to take her, but do it and begrudge it?

I'd take her. Ground rules beforehand. Be sunny and breezy at all times, giving her the choice of joining in or not, ignoring the strops and not letting her see it rattle you.
Expect worst and hope for the best. Make her aware that she is no more important, but no less important than everyone else and that everyone will get their fair share of choosing activities/seats.
Don't worry if she kicks off in public. This is the time to be fair and set and keep boundaries.
She needs to know that you want to treat her as an adult but that adults have responsibilities as well as rights.

Be matter of fact about everything. Take the emotion out of it. She joins in or does her own thing. Don't react if she tries to make it a drama.

Same as with the loud music last night. Say that you are disappointed as you will all be tired and grumpy today as a result, but don't feed the drama. She wants a reaction from you. Don't give her a big one.

No idea why it's "unfair" to the younger kids to let one parent take them away if the alternative is no family holiday at all. They are not the parents, they are not responsible for DD1, and they need and deserve a break too.

I have actually been that younger sibling, OP. My mother took the rest of us away on holiday for a break while DF stayed behind with older sibling. Yes, I was sad that older sibling and father weren't there, but it would have been completely shit to be stuck in the house for a whole summer with an angry near-adult chucking their weight about. We also appreciated the calm message from our parents that older sibling wasn't going to be allowed to control the whole family's summer plans. Like your DD, the opportunity for older sibling to come on holiday had been offered and refused.

Older sibling later calmed down and became very close to the rest of the family. I think it was good for them to get the message that they were loved and wanted, but that their anger issues weren't going to be allowed to control everyone else. That's very scary for a teen, to feel that their anger issues are literally too big for anyone to handle, either by themselves or anyone else.

@OverTheHedgeHammy thank you for the suggestion- on order now.

@Charley50 we'd have to wait due to her returning home from uni during holidays.

@clairedelalune her younger brother and sister are both full siblings, and brother is only 18 months younger.

@TheHonGalahadThreepwood I think it would be unfair due to the age difference in the children we tend to swap and change who has who so everyone gets a go at activities, that aren't suitable or favoured by the others - ie trampolining and soft play - the littlest is too small for some activities and the bigger ones don't want to do the little ones activities.

At the moment I feel something that should be a nice, fun, exciting treat has been turned into a major drama and something that certainly 4 of us are dreading, so is it worth it?

Cancel the holiday and have one in 7/8 years (we hope) when she's fully responsible for herself
I'm sorry OP but that is ridiculous. You would wait until she was 25 because she wouldn't be able to look after herself?? If she is going away to uni next year she will need to learn to live by herself. I had a view of her before, but honestly it sounds like she is massively babied and is probably sick of being treated like a child, so acts like one, lashes out at the rules and lack of freedom.
What's to say she will even come home during the holidays? Once she has a taste of freedom she'll grab it with both hands. Hopefully it will be the making of her of she will grow up, but you need to let go of the reins a little bit I think.

I’m confused as to why you’re refusing to engage with the posters saying family therapy to work with the parents and teens, perhaps the younger ones. I understand your dd won’t go to see someone. But someone can come to the house. Your last sentence is sad. This shouldn’t be us against her.

@potatopeel - @Charley50 we'd have to wait due to her returning home from uni during holidays.

That just doesn't make sense. You would be cutting off your nose to spite your face, and your whole families face. You're catastophising something that might not even happen. She'll be 25 in 8 years time!

Can you take them to a 'cool' city instead - Barcelona or similar? Lots for older and younger kids there and it should be busy/trendy enough to amuse the most sulky teen. Lisbon is another great option.

@potatopeel your DD is 17 and your dc2 at least 15.5 - your last post is utterly off the mark for NT teens if those ages. Do you really treat them as though they are still 10 and 8?

We all get that we are still parents to our kids when they are older teens, but wtf are you thinking in that last post? None of it makes sense if your children are those ages!

OP I really feel for you. My DD, now 22, sounds almost identical to your DD when my DD was her age. She was a nightmare and it was hell for me as I bore the brunt of it.

She ended up at her GP over a sleeping disorder when she was 18 and a half(she was constantly on her phone). This started a conversation which ultimately ended in her being hospitalised and diagnosed with bipolar disorder. When she got diagnosed everything made sense.

Is there is anyway you could cajole/bribe your DD to see her GP. Most teenagers go off the rails a bit but your DD & my DD took it to the extreme. Their behaviour is not normal teenage behaviour and you are not a rubbish mum.

I hear you when you say you need a holiday. God knows you NEED a holiday. I went on a 3/4 day holiday when my DD was 18. I thought she would trash the house but she didn't. She had some friends over but the house was in pretty good shape when I got home.

Could you just go away for a few days to the sun? Could her father and your friend check up on her?

I went to Spain last week for 4 days and my mood really improved. I felt happy for the first time in ages. I laughed a lot with my partner (God love him, I'm amazed he has stuck with me).

You need a break. My GP is a brilliant support to me as one of her siblings had bipolar. I can talk to her 100% openly and she reassures me that it's a tough situation and not my fault.

If your DD won't seek help there's not a lot you can do. Could you ask her friends to talk to her? Just keep telling her you love her. It might sink in eventually. Is she interested in getting her driving licence, doing a make up course, horse riding or anything fun?

If I had my time back I would have paid my DD to see our GP! It would have saved years of hell. Incidentally it came to light that my DD was smoking cannabis which contributed to her unstable mood.

I wish you well. You are doing your best in a very very difficult situation.

Sorry, not read the whole thread, so if its been mentioned-sorry!! How about getting 2 caravans-1 for you & rest of family & a 2nd for your daughter & 2/3 friends?? Get them basic supplies & a little alcohol, then leave them to their own entertainment, while still on the same site, so you can keep an eye on her from a distance?? Im presuming your DD & friends will have there own spending money??
If they don`t have a lot of spending money, perhaps you could provide food in their caravan & then they could spend their money on entertaining themselves & alcohol???

Oh god, please don't listen to ShabbyNat, that's a dreadful idea. You'd never relax, for one. And you'd end up with a huge bill for the girls' trashed second caravan!

My family could never afford to go on holiday so this wasn't an issue when I was a teenager.

However I was not nice to my family at 17, I just remember thinking that no-one understood me.
I wouldn't have enjoyed going away with my family at that age.

But I had MH problems & depression.

Maybe there's an underlying issue?

@Mummyoflittledragon I am definitely for therapy, we are receiving it- she refuses. When I said 4 of us - I include DD dreading it. So it isn't us and her.

@catinapoolofsunshine no I don't treat them as though they are 10 and 8, but if DH or I took the 3 DC on holiday and left the other at home, things like go karting /jet skiing / abseiling/canoeing/ windsurfing/ water skiing/ amusement parks / and so on would entail DH or myself watching 2 of the children doing these activities with a 4 year old - not great fun for a 4 year old so not fair on her. Do you get my meaning. We try to do some stuff with the kids, and not just send them off to do stuff alone, especially as one is 10.

@Mumontherocks1 I took her to the doctor 2 weeks ago, as she said she was feeling down, she went but refused to talk to the doctor apart from to tell her she wasn't going to go to therapy. The doctor said unless she's Willing to talk there's nothing he can do. I had a long chat with her the other day saying I think it's important for her to talk to someone to start to heal and process her feelings. I am hoping that she changes her mind and decides to see someone. I have explained it is for her, it is a safe place to express herself that she can choose to degree what she talks about, yes she will have to talk about somethings that make her feel uncomfortable but the goal is to make her feel better.

Can you get her to write any of her feelings down? It really does sound like a reaction to trauma and the rejection she feels from her father.
I really feel for you. And her. I think you need to tackle the cause and the effects of her behaviour separately I.e her behaviour is explained, but doesn't excuse it and it needs dealing with. I think the causes need family at the centre with her feeling a valued member of the family unit. Ask her what she feels she is (and could) bringing to the table.
Re the holiday, I would think totally out of the box with regards to the type of holiday. What was plan a?

There are some great phone advice lines if she would prefer not to see an actual person. MIND is great as are the Samaritans. 17 year olds can be very self conscious despite the bravado. She can talk in confidence to qualified people and can make the call in the privacy of her room so nobody else needs to know.

She's really young and needs support. My heart goes out to you both.

@potatopeel I'm confused. Do you have 3 or 4 kids? Your DD is 17, and your ds1 is 18 months younger, so 15.5 minimum, assuming your DD is only just 17. Do you also have a 10 year old and a 4 year old?
You mention trampoline parks (10 year old?) And soft play - obviously that fits with the 4 year old. So 4 kids not 3?

I assume that is my misreading and there are 4 kids of 17, 15.5, 10 and 4. However I'm still baffled by the way you're treating the older teens.

Thanks for answering me. I was talking about someone coming to the house. I did see much earlier you wrote she is refusing counselling. Hence the going into the home setting as often psychologists can see the family dynamic far more easily if a person is refusing to engage. I know the issue there is your dd could just refuse to be home or go out.

I do hope you all find a way through this.

My youngest is like this. Very hostile and controlling.

I started to use therapeutic parenting techniques a couple of years ago and found these help massively. They will also help with older kids.

Therapeutic parenting in a nutshell is a nice easy intro book

I am a kinship carer and so the kids have developmental trauma from moving around as little kids. However birth kids can have the same problems if there are things like big illnesses, domestic violence etc. In their early lives

One thing I feel confused about is whether your DD behaves very badly or not. I have read everything you have said about her very carefully and I get that she is hard work with her demands and need for control and sulks and tantrums and selfishness and lack of consideration for others, but even so you haven't really described behaviour that really "harms others" or that would cause the family to be "petrified" of her. To me that would mean something like she is physically aggressive or damages property or directly self destructive, or genuinely threatens to do those things.

I am sure her behaviour is very wearing on you and the others. But the worst you have described so far is noise and a tantrum at night, a very long sulk, spoiling her own passport, and attending a party where damage was done (not necessarily by her) and where someone (not her) got dangerously drunk. None of that seems "petrifying" so I feel as if I'm missing something.

For sure, I would not find her relaxing company or much fun to be around on holiday. But then I don't expect a family holiday to just be a "nice, fun, exciting treat" and that is not what it needs to be in order to be worthwhile. As my husband once said to me when we were having a really crap day out with DS and I was complaining "You're not supposed to ENJOY family outings you're supposed to HAVE them!!!" And among the crap we did get a few great moments, which we would have missed if we'd just gone home. So on balance, unless you are seriously expecting a smashed up hotel room or real danger or violence then I would take her on holiday, make a plan to try to reduce the worst misbehaviour, make the best of things and try to find some other way to relax myself. And yes, feel free to begrudge

Klien she does just sound stroppy, and no bloody wonder if she's being taken to trampoline parks and expected not to be responsible enough to be left alone until she's 25 despite not having any disabilities that have been mentioned.

Presumably she had her nose put out of joint by her mother remarrying and having the 4 year old when she was a pre or early teen. That and being treated as though she is at least 5 years younger than she is could create a 17 year old with an attitude problem on their own!

No advice on the holiday but I just wanted to give you a small bit of hope. At 17 I was the shitbaggest of all shitbag grumpy stroppy teenagers. My parents could do nothing right. I wasn’t out right bad but I was bloody awful to be around. I went to uni at 18 and the change in how I felt about my family was marked. I missed them, I loved them and I appreciated them. I wasn’t perfect but I just wanted to say it may get better very quickly. Uni changes kids usually for the better. Plus I didn’t go home for the whole summer. I got a job and earned money to go away with friends.

Good luck for this summer