Not to want to take teenager daughter on holiday

[potatopeel]

I have DD who is 17 who has a horrendous attitude, she's incredibly rude, grumpy, snappy, inconsiderate and very very controlling. She is her fathers double, hence me leaving him and her having no contact. She has younger siblings who are also NC with him. They are completely different to her, just your average kids, occasionally naughty/ rude/ annoying/ lazy etc, so by no means perfect.
DH and I are desperate for a holiday, we both work very hard and are very busy with kids etc. But we really want a relaxing holiday. If we take DD she will demand certain rooms/ seats on plane / days out / food and constantly ask for alcohol (we rarely say yes, so not sure why she does this) It's draining. If we leave her at home she'll trash the house, so not an option, we have no one we want to loose friendship enough to leave her with them.
We offered to pay for her and her friends to have a caravan holiday near family to keep an eye on her, but she says as they are under 18 they don't have ID and can't go drinking so she refused.
So we are left with the option to take her. So paying out a lot of money to feel uncomfortable and on edge somewhere else. DS15 has already expressed his concerns. We all do bend to her whims and wishes, not ideal but it's very difficult dealing with the fall out if we don't.
She doesn't see what she does or how she harms people. Even if it's staring her in the face.
She's ruined her passport trying to alter it to get a fake ID. I have told her she must pay to replace it, as she ruined it. DH has said he know we'll end up paying for it.
I think of laying down the ground rules before going (for the eldest not the others - seems ridiculous) but She'll ignore them or have an excuse.
AIBU not to want to take her, but do it and begrudge it?

.. She's under 18? You don't leave her on her own cause she has a temper and an attitude problem and she's a bit like her dad. You obviously saw something in him to have kids with him. I feel like your sorta punishing her and leaving her cause she's like him.
She's your daughter..
Stop giving into her and she will soon change her attitude. Is it really so bad to ask for a specific seat on a plane though?

When I took a friend and they were both 17, they couldn't wait to be rid of us! They went to the beach on their own, caught buses, went shopping on their own. If they were moping about I just made sure we were there and being our normal annoying selves, they soon made themselves scarce even if it was going to the pool or whatever

we rarely say yes, so not sure why she does this)

You'll hate me, but it might be because you rarely say yes. Motivation basics: never saying yes is the most reliable way to stop someone asking for something; always saying yes reinforces the asking but they will stop fairly soon if you start saying no and stick to it consistently from then on; but rarely saying yes reinforces the asking even more, because you said yes and then lots of no and then yes again and even though you keep saying no, you might give in again. Occasional wins are addictive. That's how gambling addiction works, not from always winning but from rarely winning. You might have accidentally trained her to keep asking!

One thing you can do about it is give her very clear rules about when you will say yes and when you wont, and stick to those rules like glue from now on. Maybe a glass of wine with dinner as pp suggested, or cocktails on the last night, whatever. Or else accept that it's a lost cause and she will just keep asking, though you still don't have to say yes when she asks.

I think of laying down the ground rules before going (for the eldest not the others - seems ridiculous) but she'll ignore them or have an excuse.

Lay down the same ground rules for everyone, in advance, adapted for their ages?

Controlling is usually about anxiety. I have no idea what she is anxious about (it's probably a personality thing and nothing rational at all) but if she's anxious then she may be a gazillion times worse on holiday where everything is different and a bit unpredictable and yet everyone is supposed to be relaxing and having a good time. Is she totally evil for the first few days of a holiday and then settles down a bit and enjoys herself and behaves a bit better after that? That would be classic new-place/new-activity/new-daily-schedule type anxiety. Or she may just have rigid ideas about what should happen on holiday. Is giving her a giving her a schedule in advance a disaster, or does it help? Or could you do something like, her choice of activity on Monday, the others choose on Tuesday and she can come along or stay in the room (etc) if she'd rather? If you set it up in advance will she make a huge fuss but then roll over when it comes to the time? Controlling people can do that sometimes.

I sympathise massively with you not wanting to take her on holiday. An easy relaxed holiday for everyone would be lovely! But right now it's not on the cards. It's work and hopefully a few good moments along the way.

I'd make her earn back the cost of passport through jobs.

Don't negotiate tell her - by x date you need to have done x y and z to earn money for passports.

When you are at airport refuse to discuss seats. Tell everyone where they are sitting once on. I doubt she'll have a strop in airport.

On holiday tell her what's going on at what time and do it. She'll have choice to join you or not and if she doesn't she's old enough to chill by pool alone.

I'm totally onboard with giving giving family members choice - eg each chooses a destination to research and activity when your there. But if everything becomes up for discussion it allows for argument.

@Theimpossiblegirl I do try the one to one thing, little treats just her and I, because with 4 kids working ft I have always made sure they get it hat time. She's really nice while she get what she wants, but it's never enough, for example can she have a friend round for the weekend, I reply yes, straight away it's Can I have 2. Can I take her out to her friends and pick her up at 11, yes that's fine, actually make it 2, then 3 or actually 4. And it goes on.

As for peoples suggestions of take a friend, I am not sure she should get the treat of taking a friend when she is sulky and unpleasant, and the others don't, so where do draw the line, DH, me 4 teens, 2 10 year olds and 2 4 year olds. I think I'll stay at work to be honest!

Well, as things stand she can't go because she doesn't have a valid passport. If she gets one, then you can discuss whether she goes with you on holiday. Do not pay for it.

@Twounder1 no not at all bad to ask for a specific seat on the plane at all. But when you have 4 children and think it's important that they all get equal window seat /aisle seat / not sitting next to her/ him time. I can't fairly put her about the others. And they ALWAYS let her have first option and take what's left. Sometimes it's petty little things, but to have the others always taking what's left is unfair on them.

My thoughts are of telling her which room she gets, which seat she has. If she feels moody, to take herself to her room until she can come out and be civil. She is old enough to stay back at the pool alone, and if she fancies wandering into town herself she's quite big enough to go, and there should be plenty of activities in the area to keep her busy, if she chooses to.

FASH84 has it.

You need to find out the root of this behaviour, whether it's a personality disorder, Aspergers Syndrome (that's not as crazy as it might sound), insecurity, trauma, being too used to not being challenged, low self-esteem, social difficulties, bullying, abuse,......

There are way more possibilities than could be explored on this thread and any suggestions or declarations of what people would do are just stabbing in the dark.

You have to understand behaviour before you can manage it.

My thoughts are of telling her which room she gets, which seat she has. If she feels moody, to take herself to her room until she can come out and be civil. She is old enough to stay back at the pool alone, and if she fancies wandering into town herself she's quite big enough to go, and there should be plenty of activities in the area to keep her busy, if she chooses to.

That sounds very reasonable.

That's kind of how we manage holidays with my DS (who does have autism.) He actually responds well to being told what to do, as long he's told before he has made his own mind up about it. We sometimes still use the old toddler trick of choice-of-two things - "would you like the cinema trip on Monday or Tuesday?" Gives him a sense of control within parameters. As for taking himself off, we just word it slightly differently - we don't comment on him being "moody", we just say if he wants some time in his room that's fine, or if we're getting on his nerves (which we do just by being relaxed and not having a plan of action!) then he can take himself back to his hotel room and watch youtube or go for a walk by himself. He's become fairly self aware over the years and goes off when he needs to. Anyway I hope it works for you.

Why go on holiday at all? Sounds like a waste of money if nobody is going to enjoy it. Save your money, and go on holiday in a year or two.

No passport = no holiday. The consequence of ruining her passport.

@IHeartMaryLennox Your childhood story sounds exactly like mine!

My mum did this to me, twice! I was a stroppy teenager, admittedly not as bad as your description of your daughter but I know I was hard to be around. It really hurt and now I'm in my thirties we have no relationship at all.

You describe her as her father's daughter and I think this says a lot about the root of the issue, you're labelling her and distancing yourself and she will feel that.

My mum did this to me, twice! I was a stroppy teenager, admittedly not as bad as your description of your daughter but I know I was hard to be around. It really hurt and now I'm in my thirties we have no relationship at all.

Why would you expect to be taken away on a holiday if you know you were 'hard to be around'?

Why do some people think they can behave however they want, treat people however they like, and their family should put up with it?

I was 15 the first time 16 the second and still very much a child! I'm acknowledging the fact now as an adult that I was a stroppy teenager but I didn't have the skills to reflect on my behaviour back then, I had a mother who actively disliked me and pushed me away instead of giving boundaries and guidance. I'm sure they had a lovely time but it was at a cost

I think the plan in yesterday evening's 19:34 post sounds fine, though she should get the same amount of choice as her siblings - more is favouritism but less is vindictive, so if the children are all getting one leg in the favoured window seat on the plane she doesn't get the middle seat both ways just to be spiteful!

I stayed behind on family holidays from 15, when I stopped enjoying them. It wasn't spiteful though, it was a mutual decision and mutually beneficial (saved my parents paying kennel fees for dog and cats). I didn't have parties though, and although we had no extended family my parents had a cleaner 3 times per week (!) who came on her regular days and doubtless was briefed to contact my parents if anything was obviously amiss.

I'm surprised 17 year olds still want to go on family holidays, but on the other hand my eldest isn't anything like me and has confused me by not having any inclination to spend most of her time in her room yet, nor is she already planning world travel and uni several hours away, as I'd started doing by 12... and I imagine she might still be keen to holiday with us at 17!

I went on my last family holiday when I was 17. I couldn’t imagine my parents leaving me behind.

I think I'd sit her near strangers on the plane if possible, give yourself a break and I bet she doesn't kick off with them.
I'd take her and ignore her when she starts, has she ever seen video of herself acting awful? I bet she'd be horrified how she behaves.
Concentrate on the other kids on holiday and leave her too it, don't accept her requests of restaurants, places to go or things to do, let the other kids choose everything for a change.

Don’t leave her in your house she will have a
‘Party’ and the place will be trashed!

A little update, I had a nice reasonable conversation with her last night about what she would like to do. She say she didn't think she could be nice for the week (her words) so not sure if she would like to go. I said she could make her mind up by Saturday so we don't miss out on the holiday (she has a habit of when given options of what she would like to do when involving the family of leaving things too late so everybody misses out, then she can't take the blame) she was told she wouldn't be allowed to stay in the house alone, that we would book and pay for a caravan holiday for her and a couple of girlfriends for the week. She texted me last evening (I assume after speaking to her friends) that she would prefer not to come as she can't (again her words) be bothered to deal with the family or pretend she cares enough to enjoy it.

Then at midnight she was on the phone to her friend shouting and playing loud music, when asked to turn it down she had a strop started throwing stuff around her room. Her brother is 10 days away from his first GCSE exam (last year she told me I'd better keep the little ones quiet while she revised).

This morning she told me she's not speaking to anyone as she shouldn't be told what to do or when to do it by anyone.

I don't think she mature enough to be left by this comment, and would go out of her way to May it uncomfortable for everyone if she came. I think the long and the short of it is we again have to cancel our plans. Maybe in a few years?

I was this child within my large family - “ just like your father” , it’s all I ever heard. I feel sorry for your daughter, you don’t like her much do you and she knows. Not really surprising then she’s acting out. To be frank the fact that you are even posting this says an awful lot about what sort of parent you are to her.
You would take all your other children and leave one behind...
if you don’t like her behaviour then put consistent boundaries in and follow through with your threats.
But as a bit of advice I’d try telling her how much you love her ( if you do) parenting is supposed to be for life not just for when younger ones come along and replace the more challenging one.

She say she didn't think she could be nice for the week (her words) so not sure if she would like to go

This is really sad. She is reaching out here, she wants reassurance.

I said she could make her mind up by Saturday so we don't miss out on the holiday

And this response speaks volumes.

Why was your only concern here missing the holiday? Surely the fact that your 17yo is desperately unhappy would be your priority?

‘This will be her last summer at home until she goes off to Uni presumably?’

Alittle presumptuous to say the least. Not all kids can afford or can go to university. Also not all kids go away and some do love at home.

live*

Wow. It sounds like you've written her off as your exes child and stopped trying.
She needs to replace the passport and you need to have a serious conversation about how to move forward as a family. They don't just stop being at 18