Not to want to take teenager daughter on holiday

[potatopeel]

I have DD who is 17 who has a horrendous attitude, she's incredibly rude, grumpy, snappy, inconsiderate and very very controlling. She is her fathers double, hence me leaving him and her having no contact. She has younger siblings who are also NC with him. They are completely different to her, just your average kids, occasionally naughty/ rude/ annoying/ lazy etc, so by no means perfect.
DH and I are desperate for a holiday, we both work very hard and are very busy with kids etc. But we really want a relaxing holiday. If we take DD she will demand certain rooms/ seats on plane / days out / food and constantly ask for alcohol (we rarely say yes, so not sure why she does this) It's draining. If we leave her at home she'll trash the house, so not an option, we have no one we want to loose friendship enough to leave her with them.
We offered to pay for her and her friends to have a caravan holiday near family to keep an eye on her, but she says as they are under 18 they don't have ID and can't go drinking so she refused.
So we are left with the option to take her. So paying out a lot of money to feel uncomfortable and on edge somewhere else. DS15 has already expressed his concerns. We all do bend to her whims and wishes, not ideal but it's very difficult dealing with the fall out if we don't.
She doesn't see what she does or how she harms people. Even if it's staring her in the face.
She's ruined her passport trying to alter it to get a fake ID. I have told her she must pay to replace it, as she ruined it. DH has said he know we'll end up paying for it.
I think of laying down the ground rules before going (for the eldest not the others - seems ridiculous) but She'll ignore them or have an excuse.
AIBU not to want to take her, but do it and begrudge it?

Your situation is obviously quite complicated. I find it a bit odd that you don't trust her in your house but do trust her on a caravan holiday with her friends. Is that because she would be trashing the caravan not your house? Otherwise it's hard to see why it's ok for her to be without adult supervision in a caravan but not your house...

I don't think this is solvable via a MN thread! Your DD is behaving in a disruptive and hard to like way and shouldn't be allowed to spoil the lives of her younger siblings but and it is a big but... it really does sound as though the cards were stacked against her for a long time, since before she was old enough to be held responsible probably, and as though she's responding to the self fulfilling prophecy of being just like her despised father, and the least favourite child.

Are your other children her half siblings by any chance?

@Buggerlugs14 thank you for reading my op and subsequent ones where I have never said I am not taking her, she has complete autonomy in deciding what she wants to do best to make her happiest. I tell her frequently how much I love her (a lot) and am forever saying how proud I am of her for her achievements, thank her for the little things she does, as ingress they are. I am fully a positive parent.
@mither she was told how much we all want her there, that she would be free to be as involved as much or as little as she chooses, that there would plenty of things that she enjoyed doing there too.
As for giving her a deadline- I don't think it's unreasonable as I explained she leaves things until the last minute, what good is it telling me the end of September she would like to go on holiday in July?
@Rosewillows she is planning on university and going away for it.

it gets worse, I'm so sorry.

toddler behaviour means toddler consequences. Remove phone, speakers and breakables. I don't know what the long-term answer is, I hope someone here does.

17 is a really tricky age, from my recollection. I was probably a lot like your DD. I was sick of doing what 'the family' wanted at this age - I was desperate to just be independent and do my own thing - but I had no money and my parents had no idea what to do with me. I remember a 3-week holiday with family the summer I was 17 and it was so hard. I had no time to myself unless I missed a meal and stayed in the hotel room on my own - and that what I wanted - to either be with my friends or to be on my own. My parents' reacted to this by being really strict and controlling and I found it utterly stifling. It made me feel gloomy and moody and I know I was pretty horrible to live with.

I understand you don't want to leave her, because she is immature and selfish and you don't trust her - and that is completely understandable - and I also understand why you don't want to take her and she doesn't want to come. But in all honesty I would try to find a way to go on your holiday (you sound like you need it), and leave her with friends/family/whatever. My DM actually left me behind for two weeks when I was 16, because I was so utterly foul and I just didn't want to spend 2 weeks with them in the middle of the French countryside. It wasn't very nice being left behind, but it was the only solution really.

Also - I think maybe you should reach out for some help and advice in how to deal with her. Giving in is not the answer, but neither is being strict and controlling. You sound out of ideas. Could you talk to your GP and ask for some help?

You sounds like you really really dislike your daughter.

My parents didn't take any of us on holidays abroad once we were in secondary school. We stayed at our grandparents and they went by themselves. 17 is not really a child, you can be a parent yourself, get married or serve in the armed forces at that age. There's no reason she can't stay home by herself, I doubt she would even want to go on a family holiday with her parents at 17. Having said that you clearly don't like her and haven't for a while, she will have known this for years and it will affect how she behaves. I think you need to work on your relationship with her.

There's no way in hell I'd send somebody so irresponsible on holiday with her mates while I pick up the tab. The caravan sounds like an absolutely dreadful idea. She goes with you or she goes to somebody who can be responsible for her.

I don't understand at all why you'd offer her a caravan holiday with the way she acts.

She doesn't think that she can be nice for a week?

Well sorry, but for me she would bloody well have to!

You are still pandering to her!

When you offer her things (caravan holidays with mates, for example), then inevitably have to take them away from her because she's a brat, you further entrench bratty behaviour. You are fuelling this fire. You just need to tell her what you're doing, she's beyond negotiation at the moment.

@WhiskeyStone thank you, you have a minute snapshot of our lives, but no you're very very very wrong. I want to help her, I want to heal her. I want her to be happy.

@Tigger85 she'd trash the house. I absolutely 100% know it.

@getoutofthebath caravan holiday is off the table. Not happening. Yes she does need telling.

@diddl yes I know!! I want to know how to stop this, it's building up into a monster. Even being told to quiet down at midnight results in temper tantrums. We're all petrified of her.

One of the thing I keep thinking is she asks me why I didn't do this or that, or she says she'd like to do something- like travel, etc, when we say let's do it she puts the breaks on. It's like it has to be on her terms, if someone else suggests it it's a stupid idea.

It sounds like she's taking the piss to be honest.

It's almost like she's being rewarded with a caravan holiday for being a stoppy little cowbag and treating her family like shit.

My dad would have probably kicked me out the house if I disrespected him, my mother and the house as much as she is.

FWIW I stopped going on family holidays when I was about 13/14, but I was an only child, and our holidays were camping. I'd get bored and lonely about 5 minutes into the journey. And then start acting like a twat.
My grandad would come round on an evening the first few times, but from 14/15 I'd be left alone. Yes I'd have people around when I wasn't supposed to, we would drink, smoke etc. but I respected being left alone and would always make sure the house was tidy (at least a day before they came home).

If it were me I'd just leave her and let her fend for herself, don't leave her money just some food in the freezer. She's 17! Leave money with family members for genuine emergencies (the toilet broke when I was left alone once, it was when I was older 19ish and had a friend who was a plumber thankfully, but it was a genuine breakage, had to give him an IOU until they got back as they didn't leave me any money and I was skint!) Take the valuables to a family members and let her get on with it.

If the house is a state when she comes back tell her she's got a month to find somewhere else to live. She doesn't respect anyone.

I don't think the caravan holiday is a good idea - will sites take them? Lots of sites don't take unaccompanied teens or single-sex groups. Besides, why should a caravan sustain the risk of getting trashed? It's probably somebody's holiday caravan that they are renting out through a site.

What about a different type of holiday - cruise ship? Enough space on there and everyone can get a seat by the window!

Or, leave her home alone but employ a very sensible house sitter or quasi au-pair with strict instructions about what to allow and when to contact you.

I think DH should take the younger ones away and you stay behind with DD (unless it's better for DH to stay and you to go - does he stand in place of her father, or is there contact with the actual father?). Then go for a break just the two of you next year when she will be out of the house at university. You can make other arrangements for the other DC at that point.

I don't think that the other DC should miss out on a holiday because their sister has anger problems. They matter too.

And yes, keep listening and talking to her, but you need to enforce rules too. Actions like keeping her brother awake just before his exams with screeching and loud music should equal no allowance, no wifi password, confiscated phone, whatever gets through to her. If your son is telling you how upset he is, don't ignore him just because his sister is so much louder.

Hers an idea. Add up the total cost of the holiday for the whole family incuding the 17yo, divide it in two. Can you get a nice week for one parent and the rest of the kids for that if you stay home with your Dd. Then with the other half of the money, you get a different week away with the younger kids and Dh stays home with her. You and Dh each get a week away with the younger kids, Dd doesn't get left alone with the house and doesn't get to go away and spoli it for the rest. The younger kids would love you for it.

" We're all petrified of her.... It's like it has to be on her terms, if someone else suggests it it's a stupid idea."

It s very sad. For her for you.
Sounds like my ex yes.
Ignore the pronouncements.

But she is still young and maybe there is a chance to break the spell...but you would need psychological Input.

Strict boundaries and don't give in to her to make her happy.

Clear choice it s a or b. .

On a plane she doesn't have to sit with you so can have a window seat.
Don't leave her alone to trash your house or a caravan.if she can't be trusted you can't give her young adult freedom..so pay a babysitter/trusted adult . is she planning to go.to.uni? She will get her freedom.then.

Imagine unpacking your car and settling into your holiday caravan with your family, and a bunch of 17 year old girls all rocking up to the one next door! You'd ask to be moved, right?!

what about a more carrot approach than a stick?

tell her she can stay at home, and that if she shows she can be trusted at home, you'll start treating her more like an adult (eg, buying her alcohol, organising a proper pre-university holiday to ibiza or somewhere)?

so there's an incentive not to trash the place.

your house is insured i bet, and if you can afford to pay for a caravan holiday for her and her mates, you most likely could pay for any damage to your house they could possibly do.

work with her to decide if there's anything in the house that needs to be protected at all costs, then put it in the loft/garage while you're away - make her part of it.

in a year, she's going to be away at uni, and if she trashes her place there, it's going to be you on the hook as well, so you might as well get her used to looking after her surroundings now!

A lot of parents go wrong with this and it has terrible consequences. Giving your child everything they want turns them into little monsters... Who grow up to be big monsters. Children need boundaries, they want them. It makes them feel cared for. You built this rod for your own back I'm afraid.

Perhaps once she's left for uni, you could change the locks and not let her back? At least you'll finally have some peace for a bit.

This sounds so hard op. I would definitely not take her abroad this year, save that for next year when she will be 18 and an awful lot of parents stop taking their kids on holiday so it’s not a rejection. Book somewhere not too far away. Maybe somewhere like York or Edinburgh where she can have the freedom to wander into a city and the rest of you can get to nice countryside or coast if that’s what you like. If she persists in being a complete shit and ruins the holiday either you or dh get on the train take her home, unplug the internet and every other electronic device in the house and wait it out.

Two teens to adulthood here, one was a little sod. For me it would be that they came on holiday. Non negotiable. I don't care if they don't speak all day, or be civil, they come along, they are invited to everything, they are left at the hotel/apart,met if they don't want to join in. No cash, no compromise , no friends. Eventually they realise that their sad family is better than nothing.,

I've said this before on other threads,, but I do think it's pertinent that posters who have had teens give their point of view. Too often posters give their opinion whilst their precious fb is laid in their cot. Everyone is entitled to an opinion but some posts are clearly from parents who havent yet reached those teenage years.

I've just seen your comment saying that you have over compensated with her. So, stop. She will not stop until you do. You have a very long road ahead of you to set right the damage you have done. You are not a bad person for giving her more attention and everything she wants, you were just doing so out of the goodness of your heart. However, it isn't by any means the best way to do things.

If you talk negatively of her father, then stop. Her siblings may be fine with it, but some kids just do not like one parent shit talking another, no matter how crappy that parent is.

DD17 demands a certain room? Nope. She gets the room she is allocated. If she doesn't contribute anything to the holiday, then it's tough luck. Demands a certain plane seat? Again, nope. Unless she is willing to pay for seat allocation, then she gets what the airline allocate to her at check in. Days out? Nope. Are you seeing a theme here? If she wants to go on a certain day out that the rest of you have no interest in, then she can do so... If she funds it herself. Otherwise, it's a group decision on where you go.

There is potential for a little bit of leeway with food. If you aren't going to do all inclusive, then you can each have a certain amount of meals out that you can each pick to go to. Once she's used her 'meal tokens' up, then she has to go with what another person wants. She will find something on the menu to eat, or just simply not eat. She's 17, not 7. You can pull that card. Alcohol is neither here nor there. Yes, the age limit is 18, however, if you're sat out on your balcony of a night, then it wont hurt to let her have a Smirnoff Ice or two. You don't want to bend to her every whim and way, but that is something so insignificant that if it shuts her up for the evening, then it's worth it. She's going to go out and get wasted once she turns 18 anyway, it's not as if she's 13 and has a few years yet. It's literally mere months until she does what she wants regarding alcohol anyway.

You mentioned that you don't have anyone you can leave her with. And to be honest, even if somebody came forward, i wouldn't put it on them. You know what she can be like, why let somebody else deal with it? Even if they offer, it would likely ruin your friendship with that person. More so, no matter how much her attitude stinks, can you IMAGINE how it would make her feel if you were to go without her?

Stop walking on eggshells around her. YOU are the boss. She is this way because you have allowed her to do so for so long. It is your house, your rules. If she doesn't like it, then she can move out and suppport herself. As is with the holiday. Your money is paying for it, so she does things your way.

She doesn't see what she does or how she harms other people because you enable her to do so, with little or no repurcussion because in your own words "We all do bend to her whims and wishes, not ideal but it's very difficult dealing with the fall out if we don't."

As for the passport, it is important to try and find a way for her to pay for it, or pay it off with chores. However, you also have no other options than to take her with you, so you may very welll end up paying for it. If this is the case, then pay for it, and keep it in your posession at all times. Once you return from holiday, either destroy it so that she will have to pay for a new one if she wants one. Or, once you have got the reigns on her again, she can earn it back with A LOT of good behaviour and chores. Or even pay you back for it.

You not only need to take control of your life and household for your own sake, but also for the sake of your other children. It must be awful for them to see her getting away with everything, and getting her own way all the time. They will either grow up resenting you once they recongnize that she is the way she is because you allowed her to, or they will slowly turn into versions of her, and then you will be well and truely done over and it'll be absolutely impossible to regain any control.

If nothing works with her, then see about outside help. Even if you have to pay for it. But start ASAP because once she turns 18, then he is her own person. If nothing change, then give her notice to move out of the house. Don't let her bring our or DH down, and especially not your other kids.

Phew, that all sounds really difficult and stressful for you to manage. No wonder you are tearing your hair.

she asks me why I didn't do this or that, or she says she'd like to do something- like travel, etc, when we say let's do it she puts the breaks on.

To be honest the more you say about your DD the less able she sounds. At the very least she sounds terribly anxious. And terribly immature too. She's avoiding making decisions, she is afraid to go on holiday with you because she can't control herself, she wants to travel and do things but then she backs out because she can't cope unless it's on her terms or maybe not at all. Even positive incentives aren't going to work if she really can't behave better.

We're all petrified of her.

That bad? I am sorry. I do have one suggestion about how to stop this. Well, two really. First of all, have you tried Ross Greene's Explosive Child strategies? She's nearly too old but she seems to have that kind of explosive behaviour when she is frustrated or when she needs to adapt to other people, which his approach might help.

Second, has she ever been assessed for the usual suspects - ADD, ODD, ASC, anxiety, attachment, sensory, Old Uncle Tom Cobley and all? And if so, what was the outcome? Because those are potential underlying causes for the kind of extreme behaviour you are seeing. In some ways I can't help thinking it would be easier for you if she did turn out to have a recognised condition like autism, because at least then you'd know where you stand and there would be some recognised coping strategies. Of course that doesn't mean she has such a condition but (if she'll co-operate enough to be assessed!) it would be worth finding out. Otherwise I guess you'll have to hope that over time maturity and independence will iron some of this out. And keep loving her and doing your best despite all (which obviously you do.)